Tom Bombadil - Who or what?

[Elwe Singollo]

Hope this question isn't so simple I sound stupid! What is Tom Bombadil? I have read Sil, and it makes no comment on him, and I am plagued by this question at night. I know the origin of the character Tom Bombadil, but he seems to have no background in LOTR, which is extremely odd for even the smallest of Tolkien's creations.

 

[YayGollum]

Oh. I thought he was just supposed to be an enigma. oh well. Lots of people have lots of different opinions. I've heard that he's a Maiar type thing, a Valar type thing, that Eru god guy, or just something that was never talked about. Which makes him an enigma. sorry that this subject plagues you. *hides*

 

[Elwe Singollo]

I can see how he is an enigma due to the lack of other references, but if so he's the only one I can think of (Goldberry not included). Obviously he is important, since Elrond and Gandalf hold him in high esteem, and since the Ring has no effect on him (which kinda eliminates the Maiar theory, doesn't it?). And he is described as the first thing on Middle Earth. I know this is difficult, but I need help (other than psychological).

 

[Lantarion]

Welcome to the forums, Elwë!
The question you posted is probably the most commonly debated subject among Tolkienists, followed by whether Balrogs had wings.. If you have the time and patience, please read through these (rather extensive) threads.

What IS Tom Bombadil?
Thoughts on Bombadil
Tom Bombadil: A character for generations past
Who is Tom Bombadil really after all the debate?

Have fun.

 

[YayGollum]

Oh. I can think of plenty of other enigmas. oh well. Sure, Yay for the other threads. Why not? Anyways, how does the fact that the Ring doesn't affect him show that he's not a Maiar type thing? oh well. Also, I don't think that many people could give you the answer you're looking for. It's a big debate. I've never run into the definite answer.

 

[BlackCaptain]

Tolkien himself said that Tom is nothing. He's an enigma. He fits into no categories, and is meant to be that way.

He's not Maia
He's not Vala
He's not Elf
He's not Spirit
He's not Man

HE's an Enigma.

Thats as simple as it can get. People can argue otherwise, but if you would like some proof:

From Letters of Tolkien; Letter 144
As a story, I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unewplained (especially if an explanation actually exists); and I have perhaps from this point of view erred in tryhing to explain too much, and give too much past history. Many readers have, for instance, rather stuck at the Council of Elrond. And even in a mythical Age There must be some enigmas, as there always are. Tom Bombadil is one (Intentionally)

 

[BlackCaptain]

Originally posted by YayGollum
Anyways, how does the fact that the Ring doesn't affect him show that he's not a Maiar type thing?

The Ring doesnt affect him, because he doesnt care. Tolkien has made this a story of Light and Dark. Good vs. Evil. If there is someone who is not on either side, and chooses not to become involved, and simply doesnt care, then the Evil won't affect him. The Ring is meant to be a temptation, and when you are finaly tempted, and cant control your urge to put it on, you become invisible. If you aren't tempted, and just put this Ring on for the fun of it (Like Tom did in his house), and not care wheather or not you will turn invisible, you wont.

Thats my two cents...

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by MorgulKing
Tolkien himself said that Tom is nothing. He's an enigma. He fits into no categories, and is meant to be that way.

He's not Maia
He's not Vala
He's not Elf
He's not Spirit
He's not Man

HE's an Enigma.

Thats as simple as it can get. People can argue otherwise, but if you would like some proof:

He is an enigma in the sense that Tolkien did not wish to deal with what Bombadil is - for whatever reason. He either left ambigous passages or the information is very scarce.

Despite that, Tom MUST be some creature, even if one of a kind. We don't have to just chalk it up to "oh, he's an enigma, let's leave it at that." People who are interested in him may discuss it to their heart's content, even if they don't reach any agreement or conclusion - which is most often the case.

 

[YayGollum]

Yes. Thank you. There we go. An enigma does not = a race. Tom Bombadil has to be a race. What race he is is the big and huge and evil and (to me) pointless question. There's no way that I know of to find out for sure. oh well.

Anyways, where do you come up with the idea that if you just don't care, the Ring won't affect you, scary MorgulKing person? I've never heard that. I always thought that the Ring wouldn't be able to affect him because he's something bigger and scarier and more powerful than Sauron.

 

[Celebthôl]

maybe instead of Mother Nature, he is Father Nature

 

[Elwe Singollo]

Thanks guys!

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by YayGollum

I always thought that the Ring would be able to affect him because he's something bigger and scarier and more powerful than Sauron.

I doubt that. Tom sure seems to know his way around his land, but that's it - beyond the borders of his lands he hasn't got that much power. And I have a hunch that Sauron is mightier than Bombadil, not just because of the vast army of minions that serve him, but as a creature/spirit.

Tom is not affected by the One Ring because he is a unique creature, he was part of Arda when it came to being with the word "Eä" uttered by Eru. That is perhaps why some matters, like the ring invisibility issue, simply pass him by.

Welcome to the forums Elwe.

 

[BlackCaptain]

Ahh... Ive noticed something...

I think it is good that there should be a lot of things unewplained (especially if an explanation actually exists);

From the same letter. So that might mean that Tolkien wanted us (the readers) to debate this? If I had to pick something, I would deffinately go with Maia. It just fits.

 

[BlackCaptain]

I ditch my theory of 'It didnt affect him cuz he doesnt care'. Ive thought of something better...


He is a Maia because:

a) Doesnt dissapear when the Ring is put on
- The Ring grants power according to the stature of the bearer... Turning invisible, is a side-effect for those of lesser stature, seing as how Men, and Hobbits (those are examples of beings of lesser stature) turn invisible. If Tom were to turn invisible, wich he didnt, that would mean he's of greater stature. Being a spirit of some sort.

b) What else could he be?
- Man; no. Look above for reason!
Hobbit; Highly doubt it
Elf; No. Look below
Dwarf; Highly doubt it
Vala; Probly not, seing as how the Vala removed themselves from ME, and if he was Ulmo he would be more in touch with the water.

c) ''He is" ~ Goldberry
- 'Eldest, that's what I am. Mark my words, my friends: Tom was here before the river and the trees; Tom remembers the first raindrop and the first acorn. He made paths before the Big People, and saw the little People arriving. He was here before the Kings and the graves and the Barrow-wights. When the Elves passed westward, Tom was here already, before the seas were bent. He knew the dark under the stars when it was fearless--before the Dark Lord came from the Outside'
~ Tom Bombadil

Those three points rule out Elves, men, Hobbits, and Dwarves. Maia, Vala, and 'Ea' are the only choices left, and I highly doubt Tom being a Vala, seeing as how Goldberry is obviously of the same 'race' of Tom, if tat is a fair classification, and no two Vala would both dwell in a very small forrest of ME.
I highly doubt the Ea theory too, because if Tom was Ea itself, he would have more control than just inside the Old Forrest. And Tolkien would have reffered to him more and written more on him, because why would Tolkien leave out the Spirit of the World in his writings? Also, there are many Maia that were never written about, or had any descriptions of what they were. Tom Bombadil could be one of these many Maia.

My vote:
Maia

If Tom is some sort of classification, and i use that term loosely, he would most likely be Maia IMO. Or you can go with my Enigma idea, and have Tom just be. Just simply be there...

 

[Elwe Singollo]

MorgulKing,

The Maia theory is the most convincing (though that may not be saying a whole lot), but about your point that Ea would have power outside the bounds of the Old Forest, remember that Bombadil set his own boundaries, they were not set for him. He stays within by choice, not because he has to.

 

[Elwe Singollo]

I have given more thought to this topic, and read over many of the other relevant threads, and I have come to the conclusion that only Tolkien knows what the truth about Tom Bombadil is. IMO Bombadil is nothing more than an enigma placed in the greatest work of all time to torment people like me, who refuse to accept Goldberry's explanation, "He is."

 

[YayGollum]

He is sounds a lot like I am. oh well.

Yikes! That quote that the scary ithrynluin person tossed over is messed up. I meant to say ---> couldn't. oh well. Anyways, oh, you have a hunch, do you? That's just craziness. At least this MorgulKing person has facts. I would think that you'd have to be stronger than the Ring to resist it's effects. Silly me.

Also, isn't that he is eldest type stuff you have in c) saying that he's Eru?

How is it obvious that Goldberry is the same thing as Tom Bombadil? I thought that he could be Ulmo and since she's something to do with a river (I forget), she could just be a lesser water type of Maiar thingy and he could have finally settled down.

 

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
he was part of Arda when it came to being with the word "Eä" uttered by Eru.

A bit off-topic, but I just realized something.. Elä is the imperative form of the verb 'to live' in Finnish!
Elä = Eä.. Looks pretty similar to me.

 

[BlackCaptain]

Originally posted by Elwe Singollo
MorgulKing,

The Maia theory is the most convincing (though that may not be saying a whole lot), but about your point that Ea would have power outside the bounds of the Old Forest, remember that Bombadil set his own boundaries, they were not set for him. He stays within by choice, not because he has to.

But why would the spirit of the world confine himself into a tiny forrest?

Originally posted by YayGollum
How is it obvious that Goldberry is the same thing as Tom Bombadil? I thought that he could be Ulmo and since she's something to do with a river (I forget), she could just be a lesser water type of Maiar thingy and he could have finally settled down.

Because since they arent the race of Men, Elves, or Dwarves, they would have to be a spirit of some kind. And if they were both Vala, they wouldn't be in Middle Earth. We can also rule out Ulmo because he is the God of Waters. Tom is the Lord of a small forrest. Sure, Tom has control over the rivers and streams in the Old Forrest, but that's it. Ulmo would have control over all waters in ME. I don't have any quotes right now, but It's been said numerous times that Tom has power only inside the Old Forrest. We can rule out Ulmo from this, and thus, rule out all Valar because they removed themselves from ME.

So weve (Ive) ruled out:
-Elf
-Man
-Dwarf
-Hobbit
-Ent (? haha)
-Eru
-Ea (Not completely yet... )
-Vala

Maia is just the best choice I think to be made

 

[baragund]

This is one of those things that make Tolkien's works so appealing. You can interpret Tom Bombadil any number of ways that are just as plausible as another. It all depends on your personal point of view.

For a long time, whenever I would try to figure out what Tom was, I would wind up shrugging my shoulders and just enjoying his character at face value. Now that I've read some of the arguments for Maia, enigma, the earth personified, etc. etc., the answer that appeals to me most is that he is Eru himself.

True, his boundaries are the Old Forest and Barrow Downs, but I don't think there is any reason to think they could not be self-imposed limits.

Have you ever seen the movie "Oh, God" or any of it's sequels? If you haven't, it's about God who comes to earth in the form of a cute, charming little old man played by George Burns (this is going back to the 70s-early 80s so I am dating myself here). Don't forget that God (and, I presume, Eru is supposed to be as well) is omnipotent; which means he could manifest himself as a little old man while managing the affairs of the Universe at the same time if he cares to. Looking at it this way, Tom Bombadil could be a manifestation of Eru for the purpose of seeing how things are developing in the world from the point of view of one of it's inhabitants. He is a spectator, seeing how his plan for the world is playing out. Don't forget, in The Music of the Ainur of the Ainulindale, Tolkien describes a music

"...greater still shall be made before Iluvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Iluvatar after the end of days. Then the themes of Iluvatar shall be played aright, and take Being in the moment of their utterance, for all shall then understand fully his intent in their part and each shall know the comprehension of each, and Iluvatar shall give to their thoughts the secret fire, being well pleased."

This tells me that all this stuff about rings and Dark Lords an' stuff is just window dressing and it's a part of Eru's bigger plan. He just wanted a ring-side seat to see it play out.