What IS Tom Bombadil?

[Alatar]

I think he is a Maia.

Apart from the other resons i read on a thread (sorry i forgot which one) conccerning the age of treebeard. We know that gandalf is older than treebeard as he was in the music. So when gandalf say's "[treebeard is]the oldest thng that walks under the sun"(or somthing along those lines i dont have the Quote with me).
But we Know that Tom and Gandalf Saruman and Sauron are all older. this means Gandalf excluded tom and himself and the others on purpose because he was only including things that are made in arda.

I am sorry if it was you who posted this orginly i have lost the quote

 

[bauglir]

the characteristics of the nermir really fits bombadil though. The nermir are always laughing and singin and not carim much for the world around them.

 

[Alatar]

I have only read LotR the Sil UT the new shadow and the hobbit. BoLT is in the post.
Can someone with more knowlege on the HoMe tell me adout the neirmir?


BTW vote on my poll one the strongest elf on this forrum!

 

[Béma]

(While I have read a good deal of the previous posts on this question, I did not get to all of them, so forgive me if this has already been said)

The possibility of Tom being a Vala or Maia is a very attractive one to me and I think a decent case can be made with Aule as the culprit, as has been done so nicely here. However, we have to take into account everything Gandalf says about Tom at the Council of Elrond.

When asked if Tom might take the Ring to keep it safe and hidden, Gandalf says he would not take it unless "all the free folk of the world begged him, but he would not understand the need. And if he were given the Ring, he would soon forget it, or most likely throw it away. Such things have no hold on his mind. He would be a most unsafe gaurdian."

It seems, to me, unlikely that a Vala or Maia, especially one who was so involved in the creation of the world (Aule), which seems to require a certain attention to detail and understanding of how things work etc., would forget something, even a small thing, of great importance. As the rulers, creators, and guardians as chosen by Eru, the Valar should not be forgetful. For someone like Aule, who cares much for the Children of Iluvater, forgetting that the Ring is dangerous would be like forgetting Sauron exists. For me, the fact that Tom "would be a most unsafe guardian" proves that he can not be Aule.

Now, there is the fact that Manwe is incapable of comprehending evil, which coincides nicely with Tom not understanding the need to keep the Ring safe. I originally had something concrete to disprove any connection between the two, but I seem to have forgotten it. In any case, I still think that Tom's carefree and forgetful nature would be uncharacteristic of a Vala.

(Looking back, it's a little rambling, but I hope coherent. Anyway, that's my take on Tom.)

 

[Alatar]

Ithink he is not a vala Cristopher tolkein said that

Manwe will not desened from the mountain untill the last battle

so if he is not a vala he is a MAIAR. As he cannot be created by the Vala or Maiar as theycan not create life of there own!
oh yeh what is a nermir????????????????

 

[bauglir]

here is some info on the nermir(posted it earlier too)
http://www.thetolkienwiki.org/wiki.cgi?Nermir
the description of the nermir fits Tom really well

 

[Alatar]

Thanks!


i agree with you now tom is a nermir.

However nermir is just the lesser Ainur. So the rank goes (i think) Vala,maia then nermir

 

[Ithrynluin]

At, first glance, the 'Nermir' theory seems plausable, and one that we could all agree on. Yet, these Nermir are not present in Tolkien's later writings, only in the very earliest conceptions of his mythology, dating as far back as 1917, when JRR was no more than 25 years old.

For example, in The Book of Lost Tales II, Melian was a 'sprite', not a Maia. Therefore, it may well be that all these 'lesser spirits' were transformed into what was later to be known collectively as 'the Maiar'.

I'm not saying that the Nermir theory is impossible, just that the professor never seemed to confirm it; what is more, JRRT seemed to have discarded the idea of these sprites, fays, pixies, and whatnot, and seemed to provide a rather unique history and classification for Bombadil.

 

[BlackCaptain]

Isn't it all up to our imagination? I think Tolkien intended Tom to be the one thing that we make him to be, that is, an un-classified thing. His letters seem to imply this, I think, but that's just what I got out of them.

 

[Sangahyando]

I say that he is the embodiment of Iluvatar on Arda

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Re: Tom Bombadil

Tolkien never said exactly who it was but he gave a few hints...

Tolkien intended for it to be a mystery. Not even he knew!

Barley

 

[Walter]

Re: Tom Bombadil

Tolkien intended for it to be a mystery. Not even he knew!

Barley

He did!

Tom Bombadil actually was the Dutch doll of Tolkien's son Michael, which is said to have looked very splendid with the feather in its hat...

...and which "accidently" got stuffed down in the lavatory someday by his brother John.




(cf. Carpenter's J.R.R. Tolkien - A Biography)

 

[Barliman Butterbur]

Re: Tom Bombadil

He did!

Tom Bombadil actually was the Dutch doll of Tolkien's son Michael, which is said to have looked very splendid with the feather in its hat...

...and which "accidently" got stuffed down in the lavatory someday by his brother John.

I was absolutely certain I'd read somewhere Tolkien's letters — in addition to everything else he wrote about Bombadil that in the end, he was a mystery even to Tolkien. I knew about the doll, but not its ghastly end...

But in researching the letters a bit , I came up with this:

Tolkien: (Letter #153) Frodo has asked not 'what is Tom Bombadil' but 'Who is he'. We and he no doubt often laxly confuse the questions. Goldberry gives what I think is the correct answer. We need not go into the sublimities of 'I am that I am' – which is quite different from he is. She adds as a concession a statement of pan of the 'what'. He is master in a peculiar way: he has no fear, and no desire of possession or domination at all. He merely knows and understands about such things as concern him in his natural little realm. He hardly even judges, and as far as can be seen makes no effort to reform or remove even the Willow.

I don't think Tom needs philosophizing about, and is not improved by it. But many have found him an odd or indeed discordant ingredient. In historical fact I put him in because I had already 'invented' him independently (he first appeared in the Oxford Magazine)3 and wanted an 'adventure' on the way. But I kept him in, and as he was, because he represents certain things otherwise left out. I do not mean him to be an allegory – or I should not have given him so particular, individual, and ridiculous a name – but 'allegory' is the only mode of exhibiting certain functions: he is then an 'allegory', or an exemplar, a particular embodying of pure (real) natural science: the spirit that desires knowledge of other things, their history and nature, because they are 'other' and wholly independent of the enquiring mind, a spirit coeval with the rational mind, and entirely unconcerned with doing' anything with the knowledge...

So it seems that what Bombadil is, is not as important as who.

Barley

 

[Walter]

Barley, we did some sort of survey quite some time ago, you can find it here.

Also Gene Hargrove's essay here may be a worthwile read...

 

[lotr_lukyfer]

It seems to me illogical to suggest that Tom is one of the Maiar, considering how all the Maiar concerned with the Ring behaved in regards to it. Saruman fell because he wanted it. Gandalf refused to take it, because he knew he would fall. And Radagast simply chose not to deal with the issue, and that was his fall, in a sense. If Tom were a Maia, he would most likely have fallen under its dominion the moment he set eyes on it. And yet he was able to wear it, with absolutely no effect, ill or otherwise, upon his will.

 

[lotr_lukyfer]

And Tom is said in the Letters to be an Enigma, not an Anomaly.

 

[Illuin]

Yes, Enigma is right. Anomaly is Star Trek:


Capt. Picard: Are you saying that it worked? We collapsed the anomaly?

Q: Is that all this meant to you? Just another spatial anomaly, just another day at the office?

 

[Prince of Cats]

It seems to me illogical to suggest that Tom is one of the Maiar, considering how all the Maiar concerned with the Ring behaved in regards to it. Saruman fell because he wanted it. Gandalf refused to take it, because he knew he would fall. And Radagast simply chose not to deal with the issue, and that was his fall, in a sense. If Tom were a Maia, he would most likely have fallen under its dominion the moment he set eyes on it. And yet he was able to wear it, with absolutely no effect, ill or otherwise, upon his will.

As far as I can tell Radagast was oblivious to the ring's reappearance

And who among the maiar have we seen to fall under spell like you suggest at sight of the ring? Gandalf saw it plenty of times and I'm pretty sure he's the only maia we see with the ring (other than Sauron of course) so I don't see any textual backup

I think it's also worth noting that the Istari were bound to their human-like forms and perhaps that affects their temptation. The only other Maia we see coming in contact with the ring is Sauron, who really doesn't count because 1.) he made it and 2.) was an evil dude from way back when he served Morgoth

I don't think Tom is Maia but I still don't have any proof

 

[Eledhwen]

Here is a pdf extract of Bombadil from Tolkien's letters, for those who don't have the book to hand. Tolkien calls Tom "the spirit of the (vanishing) Oxford and Berkshire countryside" and so is an appropriate anomaly at the place where the comfortable Shire ends and the wild and dangerous haunts of the enemy begin.

 

[Illuin]

Originally posted by Prince of Cats
As far as I can tell Radagast was oblivious to the ring's reappearance

Yeah, Radagast reminds me of Beavis on his way to save Butt-head from choking to death, but forgets about him when he spots some nachos (birds in Radagast's case). "Um...hahahahahahahahaha...um...hahah...ah...um...hahahaha...um..ah, oh yeah, um, Saruman wants you, um...hahaha...or...um, something like that, um...ah....hahahaha."