📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

[Radaghast]

I'm aware of Tolkien's assertion that a Maia who retained a form for long would become "stuck" in it, but the description seems to imply the balrog was still capable of a certain amount of shape-shifting. After all, Gandalf tells of how, after plunging into the deep waters, he turned into a "thing of slime".
View attachment 38486

I believe the implication there is that he was slimy from the water after his "fire was quenched."

 

[Radaghast]

 

[Elthir]

Well, simply put, the first sentence concerns itself with the shadow about it (it being the Balrog). Now this shadow, reaching out 'like two vast wings' is taken by some to be a simile. I'm fine with that, whilst still suggesting that the perfect thing to cast a wing-like shadow would be wings, but let's not quibble (though I'm not at all averse to a good old quibble).

For clarity: what's your idea of the shadow before the spread "like wings" statement? Especially considering your "cast" a wing-like shadow here

For example, when the Balrog came to the edge of the fire the "light faded as if a cloud had bent over it." Then we have a dark figure steaming with fire racing toward the company, but when Boromir sounded his horn, for a moment "the fiery shadow halted"

There's no spreading yet. Okay, then the shadow about it reaches out like two vast wings. It had vast wings, or "potentially" vast wing, the whole time? And still again, the fire in it seemed to die, but the "darkness" grew, and then it reaches up to a great height and its "wings" (as easily understood as its shadow as are the wings understood as "sails" in Tal-Emar", see below for a fuller version) spread from wall to wall.

And when it falls, the Balrog fell forward and "its shadow plunged down and vanished."

Again, I'm just wondering about you interpretation considering other statements in the passage.

And indeed, as noted, when the "new" Balrogs emerge in the later Silmarillion, we have: " . . . their hearts were of fire, but they were cloaked in darkness, and terror went before them; they had whips of flame. Balrogs they were named." JRRT, The Later Quenta Silmarillion

I know this wasn't published in The Hobbit, The Lord of The Rings, The Adventures of Tom Bombadil and The Road Goes Ever On, but it still hooks in perfectly with the simile reading.

Now I'm not saying that there can't be a connection between two such disparate sentences, I'm saying there doesn't have to be, and I just think the simplest explanation fits best - real wings.

You've granted that we can have a simile here, and the general meaning of simile is: a figure of speech that compares two unlike things with "like" or "as."

Writers use 'em all the time. Readers recognize 'em all the time. Similes are like acorns on oaks!

Or something else

Again, the flight from Thangorodrim using real wings is the simplest explanation - you don't need simile to actual words, back to simile etc - we can just take Tolkien as writing exactly what he meant.

Both passages are simple enough to my mind. Moria passage: simile to "word understood in light of simile" -- Durin's Folk passage: flying for fleeing.

And both passages are exampled not only in "writing in general" but in Tolkien's writing.

Inescapable logic really.

Well, as the Balrog escaped Thangorodrim. . .

"Greater than great houses are the ships of the Go-hilleg, and they bear store of men and goods, and yet are wafted by the winds; for the Sea-men spread great cloths like wings to catch the airs, and bind them to tall poles like trees of the forest. Thus they will come to the shore, where there is shelter, or as nigh as they may; and then they will send forth smaller boats laden with goods, and strange things both beautiful and useful such as our folk covet. These they will sell to us for small price, or give as gifts, feigning friendship, and pity for our need; and they will dwell a while, and spy out the land and the numbers of the folk, and then go. And if they do not return, men should be thankful. For if they come again it is in another guise. In greater numbers they come then: two ships or more together, stuffed with Men and not goods, and ever one of the accursed ships hath black wings. For that is the Ship of the Dark, and in it they bear away evil booty, captives packed like beasts, the fairest women and children, or young men unblemished, and that is their end. Some say they are eaten for meat; and others that they are slain with torment on the black stones in the worship of the Dark. Both maybe are true. The foul wings of the Sea-men have not been seen in these waters for many a year. . ." A Certain Author

To me there's nothing complicated here.

And reading the Moria encounter in the same (un)light. . .

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

 

[Elthir]

By the way, we can't forget to mention the sentence in which the Balrog was introduced: "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater. . ."

😄

And the debate rolls on like a wheel of fire riding the long line of time.

Or something like that. Maybe something with winged speed even

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

By the way, we can't forget to mention the sentence in which the Balrog was introduced: "What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater. . ."

😄

And the debate rolls on like a wheel of fire riding the long line of time.

Or something like that. Maybe something with winged speed even

So maybe the Balrog wasn’t there at all, just a shadow the whole time 👀

 

[Annatar]

Did Balrogs have Wings? What do you think, rather than what you evidence thinks....I don't want people to argue, just whether they have wings...

It's probably the same with balrogs as with dragons.
The prototypes didn't have wings, but when they became useful and there was enough budget in Angband, Morgoth could afford to upgrade non-winged Balrogs to winged Balrogs. Because for Morgoth, it must have been like playing a computer game.

 

[Radaghast]

 

[TrackerOrc]

As somebody mentioned earlier, the Balrog simply could not have fit into the Moria tunnels if it had wings the size of a cavern.

His wings aren't the size of a cavern though; 'his wings were spread from wall to wall' doesn't have to mean that they actually touched each side, merely that the wings are spreading out from the Balrog's body towards each cavern wall.

Though let's not discount the fact that astonishingly impressive wings, almost by default, would involve some sort of stunningly precise cantilever engineering.

 

[Elthir]

"What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater. . ."

So maybe the Balrog wasn’t there at all, just a shadow the whole time 👀

😄

I've got another theory that can possibly stretch out this thread like vast somethings. The dark shape appears confirmed, so where's the unlikeness? Easy: the shadow, 'cause it wasn't mere shadow.

Tolkien described a kind of shadow that's "more than loss of light" and a "Dark which seems not lack but a thing with being of its own: for it was indeed made by malice out of light."

Now I realize that this Tolkienian written, brilliant description is from The Annals of Aman section 114, and is in reference to Ungloliant (not to Balrogs), and I realize the text even says "in that hour was made this kind of Dark.". . .

. . . but in a possibly transparent effort to get to the next page in this discussion. . .

. . . all I'm saying here is: "unlight" (not mere shadow) is easily the kind of thing a Balrog can be "in the middle" of, partially obscured. And that's what Tolkien wanted, remember, in his note to himself while revising the former, easily seen Balrog. And in my opinion the Balrog can manipulate this darkness, making it (the Balrog) also seem greater than it really is.

Lo! The "ingredients" for a "cloak of Darkness" can be found in the very mind of Tolkien.

With Unlight being like shadow, but "more than loss of light". It's not mere lack of light.

And in the opinion of any flesh-wingers out there, what's the dark shape in the middle of, at this point in the confrontation?

Besides controversy

full disclosure: I added that question just to say "besides controversy" 'cause I thought it was clever

 

[Ent]

. . . but in a possibly transparent effort to get to the next page in this discussion. . .

this is my fear - there may actually be a 'next page' to this discussion..!
(All Ent-dom quivers in dismay at the thought.)

 

[Ent]

p.s. -
for those who either know, or don't know - Ent-dom does NOT have an opinion on whether Balrogs have wings.
however, Ent-dom DOES have a perspective on the matter. (for those not knowing the distinction between opinion and perspective, there are more than a few dictionaries available.)

That said, Ent-dom long ago determined to keep its own perspective under its wings, lest its thoughts take flight, incite difficulty or even consternation, and cause some to flee like birds, nesting in other fields of involvement and endeavour.

It is nice, however, to watch people spread their wings as they grow, understand more and more, and soar into new arenas of understanding, some even taking flights of fancy into new blue skies of consideration.

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

p.s. -
for those who either know, or don't know - Ent-dom does NOT have an opinion on whether Balrogs have wings.
however, Ent-dom DOES have a perspective on the matter. (for those not knowing the distinction between opinion and perspective, there are more than a few dictionaries available.)

That said, Ent-dom long ago determined to keep its own perspective under its wings, lest its thoughts take flight, incite difficulty or even consternation, and cause some to flee like birds, nesting in other fields of involvement and endeavour.

It is nice, however, to watch people spread their wings as they grow, understand more and more, and soar into new arenas of understanding, some even taking flights of fancy into new blue skies of consideration.

But do Ents have wings? Tolkien never specifically said no 🤔

 

[Elthir]

But do Ents have wings? Tolkien never specifically said no 🤔

Plus. . . 🐾 for effect. . . trees have 'em!

yéni únótimë ve rámar aldaron!
long years numberless as the wings of trees!

 

[Radaghast]

I know I said I'd given my last word on this debate, but...

Only because I think this argument, for Balrogs not having physical appendages attached to their dorsal sides, deserves a point-by-point summary. Really, I'm still utterly mystified this is even a controversy, but here goes:

1. The very first description anyone has seen of this demon contains the line, "...and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." The thing was surrounded by shadow. It has but the vaguest of outlines within this blackness. And the 'shadow' is the subject of this sentence, not 'wings'. Wings are the things the shadow is being compared to, to enable visualization by the reader. As @Elthir suggested, this is an 'unlight' that the Balrog is 'shining' outward. It's a supernatural power by an unholy creature. The shadow grew. It increased.
2. Two paragraphs later, we get the line, "its wings were spread from wall to wall," and this is what the pro-wings crowd latches onto as proof that Balrogs have wings. But, again, it's metaphor, and Tolkien is simply trying to enforce the visual of the Balrog emitting. And it should only confirm the idea that it doesn't have corporeal wings, or does anyone really think that the wings would be big enough to fill the entire cavern surrounding the Bridge of Khazad-dûm?
3. If the Balrog has wings, why doesn't it fly instead of fall when Gandalf breaks the Bridge? Heck, why doesn't it fly over the Fellowship to cut off their escape? Why do none of the other descriptions of Balrogs in other books mention wings or flight ability. I think that would confer a rather significant advantage, such that omission of this detail would be very, very odd indeed. But all melees between elf warriors and Balrogs contain no hint of the latter ever taking to the air.
4. So, assuming, for argument's sake, that Balrogs have wings we also have to assume no flight, because there is simply no evidence for it. So the argument is rather moot at this point. Because if the wings don't give flight, what are they good for? A cool visual?
5. In his recollection of his battle with Durin's Bane, Gandalf never mentions having to contend with huge wings along with everything else. And if the wings are big enough to spread from wall to wall in a huge cavern, I imagine such things would have a hard time even fitting withing underground tunnels.

And with that I end my summation.

I will return now to posting silly memes.

 

[Ent]

My dear @Radaghast - I am ever so certain your succinct dispatch of the subject suffices to draw a final conclusion.

For you.

However, I recommend you hold your conclusion loosely, and be not surprised, when you discover... yet again... there are those who do not agree. Will not agree. Cannot agree. All 3 of these in different measures, by different people - though for entirely the same reasons.

Be firm in your conclusion.
Just be not insistent in its adoption by others.

Such a path would speak of 'expectation.'
And as we know, all 'expectation' inevitably leads to subsequent 'frustration' when we find our expectation is not met.
Just as we know all 'hope' leads to subsequent 'disappointment' when our hope is not fulfilled.

(Note the words are "when...not" rather than "if....not." There are things simply inevitable in this world.)

 

[Ent]

But do Ents have wings? Tolkien never specifically said no

Finally...! A question I can unequivocally, without reservation, provide a response to - and will do so In the spirit of Tolkien's writing, and the Tolkien fanbase's aproach to things.

The answer? I am uncertain.

I can say:
1. I have never met an Ent with wings.
2. I have never read of an Ent with wings.
3. I have never understood Ents to try to 'blend in with birds' - but rather to 'appear as trees.'
4. Trolls were made in mockery of Ents, yet I have never heard of Trolls with wings.
5. I have also never read of Trolls with wings.
6. I have never heard of Trolls trying to blend in with Birds, though they have made nice roosting places for them, from time to time - as have the Ents.

HOWEVER:
7. there is no doubt Ents HAVE been among shadows etc. that 'appear like wings' in some given setting at some given time.
8. there is also no doubt Ents have 'fled as on speedy wings' from contact with both elves and men, as such is always a cause for concern and potential difficulty.
9. they may also be known to 'fly toward a group of Orcs for a good stomping,' from time to time.

So... while all the above is either true, or maybe somewhat speculative, there can only be one real conclusion.

"I am uncertain."

But I diverege from strict adherence to the intent of this thread, and should likely get back on track with my views on Balrogs and whether they have wings.

So I'll just reiterate: I will not say, one way or another. 😁

 

[Halasían]

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings.

• The Bridge of Khazad-dûm

This is the first mention in the book and sets the visual description of the Balrog. It clearly states: 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. The visualization of the Balrog is set.
Here is the rest of the passage:
'It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But
Gandalf stood firm.
‘You cannot pass,’ he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. ‘I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the
flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Uduˆn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot
pass.’
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall;'

This is a description of the Balrog's actions toward Gandalf. The fact had already been established previously that the appearance of wings were a shadow that looked like two vast wings. 'the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings'. The wings that reached out from wall-to-wall, were shadows.

this is my fear - there may actually be a 'next page' to this discussion..!

What's a few more pages to a twenty year old debate?

 

[Erestor Arcamen]

I know I said I'd given my last word on this debate, but...
View attachment 38527

Only because I think this argument, for Balrogs not having physical appendages attached to their dorsal sides, deserves a point-by-point summary. Really, I'm still utterly mystified this is even a controversy, but here goes:

1. The very first description anyone has seen of this demon contains the line, "...and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings." The thing was surrounded by shadow. It has but the vaguest of outlines within this blackness. And the 'shadow' is the subject of this sentence, not 'wings'. Wings are the things the shadow is being compared to, to enable visualization by the reader. As @Elthir suggested, this is an 'unlight' that the Balrog is 'shining' outward. It's a supernatural power by an unholy creature. The shadow grew. It increased.
2. Two paragraphs later, we get the line, "its wings were spread from wall to wall," and this is what the pro-wings crowd latches onto as proof that Balrogs have wings. But, again, it's metaphor, and Tolkien is simply trying to enforce the visual of the Balrog emitting. And it should only confirm the idea that it doesn't have corporeal wings, or does anyone really think that the wings would be big enough to fill the entire cavern surrounding the Bridge of Khazad-dûm?
3. If the Balrog has wings, why doesn't it fly instead of fall when Gandalf breaks the Bridge? Heck, why doesn't it fly over the Fellowship to cut off their escape? Why do none of the other descriptions of Balrogs in other books mention wings or flight ability. I think that would confer a rather significant advantage, such that omission of this detail would be very, very odd indeed. But all melees between elf warriors and Balrogs contain no hint of the latter ever taking to the air.
4. So, assuming, for argument's sake, that Balrogs have wings we also have to assume no flight, because there is simply no evidence for it. So the argument is rather moot at this point. Because if the wings don't give flight, what are they good for? A cool visual?
5. In his recollection of his battle with Durin's Bane, Gandalf never mentions having to contend with huge wings along with everything else. And if the wings are big enough to spread from wall to wall in a huge cavern, I imagine such things would have a hard time even fitting withing underground tunnels.

And with that I end my summation.

I will return now to posting silly memes.

This is a debate that once you’re sucked in, you can never escape. Might take a year, maybe five but you’ll come back to it like we all do 😬

 

[Idril Celebrindal]

Tolkien often uses wings to describe shadows. From RotK:

Over the land there lies a long shadow, westward reaching wings of darkness

So it is quite likely that when he described the Balrog as having shadowy wings, he meant shadows that reached out like wings.