9 rings for mortal men

William Amos · Mar 16, 2003

Hmm was reading the "Harad" Post and it got me thinking...

I remember scantly that it stated Sauron when he invaded Eregon and Killed Celebrimbor that he found and took the 9 rings. The others were hid from him.

Im trying to remember the date that "The ringwraiths first appear" I believe that was in the Second age or early third.

We know The Lord of teh Nazgul was a "Black" Numenorien.

Also we know that one was an Easterling (I think reference is in Unfinished tales.

Also they stated that one or two were haradrim.

What im trying to figure out is maybe Sauron didnt give all 9 out at once ? but to some over time ? The Lord of the Nazgul culd have been First. The easterlings dont pay a visit till the wainriders late in Gondor's history (not counting Easterlings in Belerand)

And the Haradrim were even later. I know they were involved with the Wainriders and the attack on Gondor.

Hmm so lets figure that Sauron staggered the rings over time. Any Ideas over whom he could have given rings to ? The Gondorian survivors of the Kinstrife in Umbar ? The King of the Wainriders ? A Military leader of Numenor ? Any Ideas ?

Maerbenn · Mar 17, 2003

Im trying to remember the date that "The ringwraiths first appear" I believe that was in the Second age or early third.

From Appendix B:

2251 Tar-Atanamir takes the sceptre. Rebellion and division of the Númenoreans begins. About this time the Nazgûl or Ringwraiths, slaves of the Nine Rings, first appear.

We know The Lord of teh Nazgul was a "Black" Numenorien.

Please provide citation for this. You might find this article interesting: The name of the Witch-King; a proposed answer

Beor · Mar 25, 2003

I have surely seen references or hints that the Witch King of Angmar was one of the Ringwraiths, even thought the above document seems to dismiss it.

There was a long battle between the Rangers and the forces from the WKoA, with the Rangers winning the day, thought not before his hand reached out far enough to cause a fell winter, wolves and orcs in the shire.

Tar-Elenion · Mar 25, 2003

We know that three of the Nazgul were Black Numenoreans (see the Silm.), we don't know which three. It is often presumed that the Lord of the Nazgul was but this is not stated in the corpus. We do know that at least one (the 2nd) was an Easterling (See UT). We do not know what the others were. The Witch-king of Angmar was the Lord of the Nazgul. He came to Angmar ca. TA 1300 (See App. B). The Nazgul first appear ca. SA 2251 (see App. B).

Maerbenn · Mar 26, 2003

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
We know that three of the Nazgul were Black Numenoreans (see the Silm.), we don't know which three.

You are probably referring to this passage in the Akallabêth:

Yet Sauron was ever guileful, and it is said that among those whom he ensnared with the Nine Rings three were great lords of Númenórean race.

Do we really know they were Black Númenóreans?

Tar-Elenion · Mar 26, 2003

Well they certainly were not among the Faithful.

"But it is told that he was a renegade, who came of the race of those that are named the Black Númenóreans; for they established their dwellings in Middle-earth during the years of Sauron's domination, and they worshipped him, being enamoured of evil knowledge."
LotR, RotK

If the shoe fits...

jallan · Mar 26, 2003

So we only know that one of the Three Númenóreans given Rings was of the race of those named “Black Númenóreans”.

One or both of the other Númenóreans not of that “race” might have been given Rings.

At that point they might have been classed as Black Númenóreans.

Maybe its a good thing Tolkien did not delve into such matters and spend months writing three discrepent versions of an essay on “Definitions of Race, Nationality, Political Philosphy, and Religious Belief Among Those of Númenórean Descent”.

Tar-Elenion · Mar 26, 2003

Originally posted by jallan
So we only know that one of the Three Númenóreans given Rings was of the race of those named "Black Númenóreans".

The 'he' mentioned is the Mouth of Sauron, not a Ringwraith.

One or both of the other Númenóreans not of that “race” might have been given Rings.
At that point they might have been classed as Black Númenóreans.

I was attempting to define who the Black Númenóreans were. They appeared in the years of Sauron's domination, and would be from among those Númenóreans who established dominions in Middle-earth after ca. 1800 when the shadow fell on Numenor.

Maybe its a good thing Tolkien did not delve into such matters and spend months writing three discrepent versions of an essay on "Definitions of Race, Nationality, Political Philosphy, and Religious Belief Among Those of Númenórean Descent".

...along with their divergent forms of the word 'black'.

Wait. I thought that was coming out in the next VT...

BlackCaptain · Apr 1, 2003

The Nazgul and thier origin are very lightly covered topics by Tolkien. If one wanted to know anything about them, I would read towards the end of the Silmarillion, and Unfinished Tales. I still have to finish the Sil, then I'm off to Unfinished Tales...

Thats why I like the Nazgul... They're just so damn mysterious!

Iluisa Olórin · Apr 11, 2003

A couple of interesting comments made by Gandalf in Vol. VI of THoMe:

"'Men had three rings, and others they found in secret places cast away by the elf-wraiths: the men-wraiths are servants of the Lord, and they brought all their rings back to him...'"

"'But all the nine rings of Men have gone back to Sauron, and borne with them their possessors, kings, warriors, and wizards of old...'"

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