The Early Work of the Nine Rings

From the portion in 'Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age':

Men proved easier to ensnare. Those who used the Nine Rings became mighty in their day, kings, sorcerers and warriors of old. They obtained glory and great wealth, yet it turned to their undoing. They had, as it seemed, unending life, yet life became unendurable to them. They could walk, if they would, unseen by all eyes in this world beneath the sun, and they could see things in worlds invisible to mortal men; but too often they beheld only the phantoms and delusions of Sauron. And, one by one, sooner or later, according to their native strength and to the good or evil of their wills in the beginning, they fell under the thralldom of the ring that they bore and under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's....

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Now, another discussion got my mind going on some of this and I thought I'd share and solicit other opinions:

1. What do you think the powers were like that were granted to those nine men in the earliest years?
2. What do you think their kingdoms were like throughout their reigns?
3. In what order do you think they became transformed into wraiths?
4. What do you think determined the 'Pecking Order' of the Nine... ?? Why were some more powerful as Nazguls than others?

Here are some partial answers I myself would give:

1. I only just noticed about how they could be invisible at will. I take it then that they didn't necessarily become invisible when wearing their rings. This may spark controversy, because there are some HoMe sections about a person's spirit, etc - but I have wondered at times if the One Ring made people invisible only because Isildur had commanded it to make him invisible when he put it on at the Gladden Fields. It was then sort of 'stuck' in that mode of causing invisibility. Subsequent wearers either didn't have the will to reverse that or it never occured to them that they could. Isildur could have known about the abilities granted to the Nine some 1500 years before - and might have been unconcerned about using the One himself, because 'Sauron was dead... (right?)'

2. We can only speculate, but things were probably great at first, then fell into ruin. However, that may have taken centuries. The Nine probably outlived their direct heirs... and as they turned more and more evil may have intentionally eliminated them. Early on, probably nine rival but somewhat aligned countries, rising to prominence over the other Men of Middle-earth... but then fading and falling... leaving chaos in their wake.

3. There are two traits which seem to determine how readily each ringbearer became a wraith: native strength and the good or evil in their wills. I take it that those who were stronger and those who were good would resist longer. So... the first to succumb would be the weaker ones who were already inclined to evil (they were partly there... evil-wise, and had less resistance to being dominated), next either those who were stronger and evil or weaker and had tried to do good... last of all, those who were strong-minded but of good intentions.

4. Somewhat twisted version of when they became wraiths. I suggest that those who were strong and who had been originally inclined toward evil would have made the strongest wraiths... probably the Witch-King and Khamul fell into this category. Next would be those who were weaker-willed, but had been inclined to evil. Third would be those who were weaker-willed, but had been initially inclined to do good... what they had become would cut against their grain. Weakest of all might have been those last to fall... those who were strong-minded and who had been inclined to do good. For... their own ring, and Sauron and his One, would have totally broken them... they might weakly follow commands - and sure - in so doing would have still had the power of a ring-wraith, but could probably do absolutely nothing on their own.

Feedback?

I think you give some excellent answers, Valandil.

The idea that the One Ring was stuck in invisible mode is one I have not heard before or ever thought of. I'd really have to take a look at some things that JRRT did write about the Ring in Letters before I could comment further, but it is an insteresting idea, and I can image the Ring being put into modes. I am curious which portions of HoME dealing with spirits you have in mind, and for what reason would they cause controversy.

The only part of answers 2-4 that I disagree with right off hand is that I think the order would be as follows: Strong willed but more inclined to evil, strong-willed but less inclined to evil, then those of weaker will. My reason being that a person's strength of will is less apt to change over time than their evilness. (But this is partly because I assume strength of will is related to strength of spirit) Once a spirit does become evil, is it any less so because once long ago it resisted the hardest? I wouldn't say so.

On answer 3, I think there is at least a chance that those men who were not good but had a weaker will would fall before those who are more evil but stronger of will. I think this is most likely if the men were able to tell early on that the Ring was actually dominating them. In this case an evil man may resist just as much as a good one, being evil but having no desire to be controlled.

Maikanare said:

... I am curious which portions of HoME dealing with spirits you have in mind, and for what reason would they cause controversy.

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I don't have it myself, but apparently, one of the books mentions these two aspects of Men and Elves (and other beings):

Fëar, Hröar

Someone on another forum once countered my argument about Isildur willing the Ring to make him invisible with whatever is forwarded there (I can try to dig up more if you like - and I don't recall exactly what each even was - does anyone know offhand?)... but at the time I didn't recall this part about the Nine.

I expect the Nine Rings gave various other powers as well... and something like invisibility might have been among the least. The greatest could have been making their owners great (nearly invincible) warriors and leaders of men. As sorcerers... maybe about anything you could imagine that would go beyond normal human abilities... including invisibility, maybe flight, seeing what was far-off, reading thoughts... who knows???

"...They fell under the domination of the One, which was Sauron's."

This being the entire purpose of the given "powers" contained within each ring given to them. It is good to remember that, since in the end, all they (the rings) did was make slaves out of them. The power they held only lasted so long, and rightly so, since they used it for evil (what other choice did they have?) Sauron knew the lust for power was great in men, and therefor gave them all rings which made them feel like they could have or achieve all they ever wanted, but it was all a delusion.

I think the powers were, though I could be wrong:

~Invisibility,

~Seeing/sensing things beyond or outside of the normal world (of course what Sauron wanted them to see...),

~The power of persuasion over others, great leadership (seemingly),

~The feeling of invincibility,

~Longevity,

~other?

As for what their kingdoms were like I would probably say Nazi Germany. They at first had a very charismatic leader, one with a vision and much promise (yeah right). After a while however, they became sick and tired of his warmongering and lies and the promised vision for the future of their country, and in the end only got bombed into oblivion and were left with just the ashes of the powerful dream they believed in so much.

I agree with Nóm about the order in which they became wraiths. The strong-willed were the last to change, weakest first.

Oh - don't get me wrong... I'm in no way admiring or envious... just speculating.

I'm re-thinking which would be more powerful... perhaps a strong-willed man who was originally good WOULD be a powerful Nazgul. I guess we generally figure that Aragorn or Gandalf would have eventually been powerful, if wielding the One (albiet, grossly corrupted). Perhaps the same held true of the Nine.

As for when the transformation took place with each of the Nine... it would depend upon the degree of strength, degree of goodness or evil... etc - for those who were stronger+evil or weaker+good. And whether 'strength' or 'goodness' was more able to hold off the effects. Those things would all be on a sliding scale, of course.

Recently read a bit about the ancient Assyrian kingdom, say 7th cent BC... very powerful, very brutal. While still appearing quite strong, they were overcome and annihilated (oh cripes... was it the Babylonians? not sure). Came simultaneously with my thoughts on the Nine, so I couldn't help but think about possible similarities.

Oh - Happy Friday the First! (of Winterfilth!)

Fëar, Hröar - Spirits, bodies. I am familiar with all the writings about this, but I can't think of anything in it that hurts your theory.

Thanks for definitions of terms. Someone gave me an explanation of how Men and Hobbits had less awareness and control of the relationship between them than Elves and Maiar... which was why they turned invisible when putting on the One Ring.

Hmmm... maybe that was their theory though, and not explicitly stated. I'll try to 'summon' the person who made that case. They're a member here also.

It is true the mortals have less command over their body with their spirits than the elves do. Unless JRRT said that this is the cause of the invisiblity I would call it a theory, but I don't remember if he said this or not. It is actually what I have believed myself without giving too much thought to it, so maybe he did write this somewhere. I do think it is a good theory but I don't think it disproves yours.

Right now I see one advantage your theory actually has over the other one. According to your theory one would be able to remain visible once he gained some command over the Ring. According to the other theory he would have to gain more control over himself, the relationship between his mind and body change. It's my opinion that the former is more plausable.

Anyways, I better check everything Tolkien did say about the Ring before I go much further.

You know, I found where we had posted on it before and the thread (at another MB - called 'Entmoot') was referenced. I'll take the liberty of posting the link here to present the case opposed to mine.

http://entmoot.tolkientrail.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6854