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The Rings of Power

Re: of the elven rings

Originally posted by Brytta
The question that this quote raises for me is, are the Elven rings that Sauron did take possession of at this point the rings that Sauron later gives to men and Dwarves, or are they rings that we never here about again?

There's such a depth to Tolkien's stories. To movie-goers they just see pretty rings, but readers understand the rings' histories and love the story more because of it.

Grond, you mention that Gil-Galad passes out the other two (or perhaps 1) ring before the Battle of Mount Doom. How does Galadriel gain possession of Nenya? I guess that Elrond gave it to her after Gil-Galad's passing? Is this information in the HoME series?

Cheers.
The quote from UT below answers most of your questions. Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is one of the most informative chapters in any of Tolkien's books and is well worth the read.
from Unfinished Tales, Concerning Galadriel and Cirdan
When Sauron learned of the repentance and revolt of Celebrimbor his disguise fell and his wrath was revealed; and gathering a great force he moved over Calenardhon (Rohan) to the invasion of Eriador in the year 1695. When news of this reached Gil-galad he sent out a force under Elrond Half-elven; but Elrond had far to go, and Sauron turned north and made at once for Eregion. The scouts and vanguard of Sauron's host were already approaching when Celeborn made a sortie and drove them back; but though he was able to join his force to that of Elrond they could not return to Eregion, for Sauron's host was far greater than theirs, great enough both to hold them off and closely to invest Eregion. At last the attackers broke into Eregion with ruin and devastation, and captured the chief object of Sauron's assault, the House of the Mírdain, where were their smithies and their treasures. Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked. There Sauron took the Nine Rings and other lesser works of the Mírdain; but the Seven and the Three he could not find. Then Celebrimbor was put to torment, and Sauron learned from him where the Seven were bestowed. This Celebrimbor revealed, because neither the Seven nor the Nine did he value as he valued the Three; the Seven and the Nine were made with Sauron's aid, whereas the Three were made by Celebrimbor alone, with a different power and purpose. [It is not actually said here that Sauron at this time took possession of the Seven Rings, though the implication seems clear that he did so. In Appendix A (III) to The Lord of the Rings it is said that there was a belief among the Dwarves of Durin's Folk that the Ring of Durin III, King of Khazad-dûm, was given to him by the Elven-smiths themselves, and nothing is said in the present text about the way in which the Seven Rings came into possession of the Dwarves.] Concerning the Three Rings Sauron could learn nothing from Celebrimbor; and he had him put to death. But he guessed the truth, that the Three had been committed to Elvish guardians: and that must mean to Galadriel and Gil-galad.

In black anger he turned back to battle; and bearing as a banner Celebrimbor's body hung upon a pole, shot through with Orc-arrows, he turned upon the forces of Elrond. Elrond had gathered such a few of the Elves of Eregion as had escaped, but he had no force to withstand the onset. He would indeed have been overwhelmed had not Sauron host been attacked in the rear; for Durin sent out a force of Dwarves from Khazad-dûm, and with them came Elves of Lórinand led by Amroth. Elrond was able to extricate himself, but he was forced away northwards, and it was at that time [in the year 1697, according to the Tale of Years] that he established a refuge and stronghold at Imladris (Rivendell). Sauron withdrew the pursuit of Elrond and turned upon the Dwarves and the Elves of Lórinand, whom he drove back; but the Gates of Moria were shut, and he could not enter. Ever afterwards Moria had Sauron's hate, and all Orcs were commanded to harry Dwarves whenever they might.
There is much more bt this gives you the basic information. The 9 and 7 were indeed taken from the Elves in Eregion by Sauron... but the 3 had already been bestowed to Galadriel and Gil-galad. Hope this helps.
 
Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked

I know this is a side track, but this passage made me think... doesn't it seem as if Sauron was leading his army? Contradicting the 'wisdom' of Denethor, that the great leaders stand at the back?

Is it possible that Sauron's earlier form was not as cowardly? Third Age Sauron is a coward, we know that. On the other hand, 'Sauron' in the quote above may be just a figure of speech, as in "Bush will fight Iraq" (please note I am not comparing Bush with Sauron!!).

What do you think?
 
Originally posted by Eriol
I know this is a side track, but this passage made me think... doesn't it seem as if Sauron was leading his army? Contradicting the 'wisdom' of Denethor, that the great leaders stand at the back?

Can it be that this matter of was such great importance to him that he wanted to be there himself and have the pleasure of slaying his main foes and capturing their hands' work?
 
Originally posted by Eriol
I know this is a side track, but this passage made me think... doesn't it seem as if Sauron was leading his army? Contradicting the 'wisdom' of Denethor, that the great leaders stand at the back?

Is it possible that Sauron's earlier form was not as cowardly? Third Age Sauron is a coward, we know that. On the other hand, 'Sauron' in the quote above may be just a figure of speech, as in "Bush will fight Iraq" (please note I am not comparing Bush with Sauron!!).

What do you think?
If you read the all the passages in UT and other blurbs scattered throughout HoMe, there is absolutely no doubt that Sauron was actively involved in the war to recover the Rings of Power. Further on in the account I already quoted, it speaks of the Numenorean fleet rescuing Gil-galad's beleaguered forces at the Grey Havens and also coming to Elrond's aid in Imladris. It also speaks of Sauron barely escaping capture by the advancing Numenorean army. I am also just as certain that Sauron was not a coward in the Third Age. I think his physical form in the Third Age was not as powerful as it had been in prior times and he had learned not to confront Man or Elf in person unless absolutely necessary. Sauron fought against the might of Goodness until the very end.
One must also remember that the Sauron that lead his army against the Gwaith-i-Mirdain was a Sauron who had never been unhoused. By the end of the Third Age he had been dehoused twice (once at the fall of Numenor and once when defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil).

Sauron's valiant defiance of the People's of Middle-earth is illustrated right up to the point where he utterly defeated. A perfect example of this courage is illustrated at the very end of the Last Battle in the Third Age where the text states:
from The Return of the King, The Field of Cormallen
And as the Captains gazed south to the Land of Mordor, it seemed to them that, black against the pall of cloud, there rose a huge shape of shadow, impenetrable, lightning-crowned, filling all the sky. Enormous it reared above the world, and stretched out towards them a vast threatening hand, terrible but impotent: for even as it leaned over them, a great wind took it, and it was all blown away, and passed; and then a hush fell.
That last defiant act, is hardly the act of a coward.

I encourage anyone who wishes to know more of this to specifically read The Unfinished Tales and also Peoples of Middle-earth. There is much in these two books which gives more clarity to these issues. It must also be understood that Tolkien never finalized any of these tales. We have many different accounts of the way and time in which these things happened. Christopher Tolkien has sought to arrange them in the manner that he felt his father had ultimately "decided" that they should appear... but we will never really know.
 
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Ok, it seems I used the word 'coward' carelessly... but Sauron was definitely not 'brave'. 'Cunning', perhaps, but he never showed personal courage, he only got involved in a fight if he was pretty sure he'd win or if he was forced to do it. His only mistake in this regard was Huan -- and this was a misjudgment, not a brave act, he thought he would beat Huan in a fight. Compare with the 'good' leaders. Even Denethor, the only leader who 'stays in the back', had taken part in battles in his youth (I gather this from his rivalry with Thorongil, and especially from his use of armour). Sauron, on the other hand, even in the first age, never faced willingly an even fight -- again the exception being Huan (and it must have been a surprise to him, Maia that he was, to be beaten by Huan). Anyway, this is just a matter of the word used (I think) -- coward is perhaps too strong, but he is not brave...

Or do you think he's brave, Grond? I don't want to sound too definite here.
 
Originally posted by Eriol
Ok, it seems I used the word 'coward' carelessly... but Sauron was definitely not 'brave'. 'Cunning', perhaps, but he never showed personal courage, he only got involved in a fight if he was pretty sure he'd win or if he was forced to do it. His only mistake in this regard was Huan -- and this was a misjudgment, not a brave act, he thought he would beat Huan in a fight. Compare with the 'good' leaders. Even Denethor, the only leader who 'stays in the back', had taken part in battles in his youth (I gather this from his rivalry with Thorongil, and especially from his use of armour). Sauron, on the other hand, even in the first age, never faced willingly an even fight -- again the exception being Huan (and it must have been a surprise to him, Maia that he was, to be beaten by Huan). Anyway, this is just a matter of the word used (I think) -- coward is perhaps too strong, but he is not brave...

Or do you think he's brave, Grond? I don't want to sound too definite here.
LOL! I didn't mean to come off holier than thou in my response. I was just stating some facts in the works which support that Sauron wasn't afraid to take personal action when circumstances warrranted. As he consumed more of his finite power in rebuilding himself, he definately chose to use others to act for him rather than to get involved personally where he might again come to personal harm.

As far as your Huan comparison. You might not know it, but good ole Huan was deemed by most scholars to also be a Maia. He was originally a servant / vassal of Orome and certainly showed a lot more angelic power than any ordinary canine.

Your opinion actually isn't far from mine. Sauron was cunning and an expert in using any tools at his disposal to further first his Dark Lord's aims and later his own devious and evil plans. I, personally, find it hard to assign traits such as bravery or cowardice to angelic beings who don't fear or suffer the same emotions, fates, etc. as we mere mortals. :);)
 
No grudge from me :) . I am aware of the 'Huan/Maia' speculation, but I don't think it holds water... and even if he was a Maia, he was much weaker than Sauron, being 'forcibly incarnate', much as the later wizards -- I don't think he had the option to 'unhouse' (is that the correct word?) as an ordinary Maia could. I have a small resistance to this concept of Maiar leaving descendants, not in the case of Huan, but in the Eagles and in the Steeds of Oromë that would after many generations beget Shadowfax -- some people have suggested that they are Maiar too, but it doesn't click (for me). And I don't think Huan would be a greater spirit than Thorondor. This is probably being argued right now by people more learned than me in a more proper thread...

But probably Sauron thought he would have an easy time against Huan anyway... big mistake :D .
 
Originally posted by Eriol
...I have a small resistance to this concept of Maiar leaving descendants, not in the case of Huan, but in the Eagles and in the Steeds of Oromë that would after many generations beget Shadowfax -- some people have suggested that they are Maiar too, but it doesn't click (for me). And I don't think Huan would be a greater spirit than Thorondor. This is probably being argued right now by people more learned than me in a more proper thread...

But probably Sauron thought he would have an easy time against Huan anyway... big mistake :D .
There is no canon rule on whether Maia could procreate. Tolkien bounced back and forth on the concept thoughout his writings. At first, Gothmog was the son of Melkor. Eonwe was the son of Manwe and Varda. As it stood in the published Silmarillion, only Melian of all the Ea bound was said to have procreated with Elu Thingol. This leaves tons of loose ends. First we have Shelob, who is identified as the last spawn of Ungoliant... yet the published Silmarillion says this of Ungoliant.
The Silmarillion, Of the Darkening of Valinor
There, beneath the sheer walls of the mountains and the cold dark sea, the shadows were deepest and thickest in the world; and there in Avathar, secret and unknown, Ungoliant had made her abode. The Eldar knew not whence she came; but some have said that in ages long before she descended from the darkness that lies about Arda, when Melkor first looked down in envy upon the Kingdom of Manwë, and that in the beginning she was one of those that he corrupted to his service. But she had disowned her Master, desiring to be mistress of her own lust, taking all things to herself to feed her emptiness; and she fled to the south, escaping the assaults of the Valar and the hunters of Oromë, for their vigilance had ever been to the north, and the south was long unheeded. Thence she had crept towards the light of the Blessed Realm; for she hungered for light and hated it.
This seems to be a direct reference to the following quote.
from The Silmarillion, Valaquenta, Of the Enemies
But he was not alone. for of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
And, finally, we have this as well.
from Morgoth's Ring, Myths Transformed, VIII, Orcs
But true 'rational' creatures, 'speaking peoples', are all of human/'humanoid' form. Only the Valar and Maiar are intelligences that can assume forms of Arda at will. Huan and Sorontar could be Maiar - emissaries of Manwe.(4) But unfotunately in The Lord of the Rings Gwahir and Landroval are said to be descendants of Sorontar.(5)

In any case is it likely or possible that even the least of the Maiar would become Orcs? Yes: both outside Arda and in it, before the fall of Utumno. Melkor had corrupted many spirits -some great, as Sauron, or less so, as Balrogs. The least could have been primitive (and much more powerful and perilous) Orcs; but by practising when embodied procreation they would (cf. Melian) [become] more and more earthbound, unable to return to spirit-state (even demon-form), until released by death (killing), and they would dwindle in force. When released they would, of course, like Sauron, be 'damned': i.e. reduced to impotence, infinitely recessive: still hating but unable more and more to make it effective physically (or would not a very dwindled dead Orc-state be a poltergeist?).

But again - would Eru provide fear for such creatures? For the Eagles etc. perhaps. But not for Orcs.(6)
I have always considered that Ungoliant and Huan were of the angelic powers, else how does one explain their might? Fingolfin put up a pretty good fight against Melkor but Huan totally bested Sauron. Ungoliant had Melkor in fear for his very being. Sure, she was bloated from her jewel/light diet... but I think it shows that they (Ungoliant and Huan) were definately more than something that was simply "of Ea". But... that is just my humble opinion. That and $4.50 will get you a Cafe Latte at Starbucks. :)
 
I agree completely with this:

I have always considered that Ungoliant and Huan were of the angelic powers, else how does one explain their might? Fingolfin put up a pretty good fight against Melkor but Huan totally bested Sauron. Ungoliant had Melkor in fear for his very being. Sure, she was bloated from her jewel/light diet... but I think it shows that they (Ungoliant and Huan) were definately more than something that was simply "of Ea".

I also think they are 'spirits', not of Eä... I only think they are not Maiar. Does that make sense? Were all Ainur either Valar or Maiar? I really should check this on the Ainulindalë/Valaquenta, but I don't have a copy here (or within 30 miles :( ). Couldn't they be Ainur, but not be Maiar? The procreation of Maiar without a 'created' strand (such as the case of Melian) leaves all sort of dead ends, most specially since 'Evil can not create' -- couldn't the evil Maiar under Melkor just outbreed the other Ainur otherwise? Perhaps even researching cloning... The main trouble would be the origin of Maiar spirits. Of course we will never know Tolkien's own thoughts, but I think this would be a mighty objection to the concept of breeding Maiar, and one he would take into account. From his letters it appears he put a great amount of thought into these spiritual (really theological) matters, even when he was claiming to 'just write a story'.
 
My understanding of Tolkien's opinion on your hypothesis is that once an Ainur ascended into Ea, he was bound forever to it. He lost the ability to leave. He became one of the Maia. I have researched this on another thread on this very forum, some time ago. I'll look for the thread tonight and see what my "quote search" came up with then.

I honestly believe there were no other angelic spirits on Ea other than the Valar and Maiar, it wouldn't make sense... and Tolkien's world typically makes very logical sense.
 

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