Uruks vs. Uruk-hai

Gorbag and his Uruk-Hai band are the "rebel" Uruks referred to. Thus the term Uruk-Hai being used by Morder Orcs about Uruks infers that the term cannot be unique to Saruman's. Therefore Uruk-Hai and Uruks are interchangeable and synonymous.

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Gorbag and his boys cannot be the "rebel Uruk-hai" referred to. Gorbag and his boys were all dead, as Shagrat well knew since he killed Gorbag himself and saw all Gorbag's boys killed. Presumably the Nazgul that arrived at Cirith Ungol could also see this.

As for the Mouth of Sauron, when he displayed the various items at the parley before the Black Gates he also said they had "the spy". They did not know there were two intruders in Mordor (Frodo and Sam) and hadn't a clue what was going on back at Cirith Ungol.

I'm back... just couldn't stay away.

Originally posted by Greenwood
Gorbag and his boys cannot be the "rebel Uruk-hai" referred to. Gorbag and his boys were all dead, as Shagrat well knew since he killed Gorbag himself and saw all Gorbag's boys killed. Presumably the Nazgul that arrived at Cirith Ungol could also see this.

As for the Mouth of Sauron, when he displayed the various items at the parley before the Black Gates he also said they had "the spy". They did not know there were two intruders in Mordor (Frodo and Sam) and hadn't a clue what was going on back at Cirith Ungol.

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First we have this quote from TT, chapter The Choices of Master Samwise, Gorbag is speaking to Shagrat and says, "...Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks..." So clearly Gorbag is an Uruk (Great-orc).

Secondly we have this quote from the Movie Cover RotK, The Tower of Cirith Ungol, page 191, where Shagrat states, "Then you must go. I must stay here anyway. But I'm hurt. The Black Pits take that filthy rebel Gorbag!..."

The referenced conversation occurs later when one of Shagrat's troops (who apparently wasn't at the fight says, "Whose blame's that? Not mine. That comes from Higher Up. (Shagrat? or Nazgul?) First they say it's a great Elf in bright armor (Frodo?), then it's a sort of small dwarf-man (Samwise?), then it must be a pack of rebel Uruk-hai (Gorbag?); or maybe it's all the lot together."

The conversation being spoken of was between one of Shagrat's company and a tracker orc. They are trying to track Samwise and it would be very logical for this Uruk to have said it came from higher up (meaning Shagrat). Especially if this Orc had not been at the fight but was following subsequent orders by Shagrat.

Greenwood, I fail to see anything that would suggest that "Gorbag and his boys cannot be...". That is a definitive and one that you haven't presented evidence to support. I have still not decided this issue but, in keeping an open mind, had to respond to what I consider to be an inaccurate statement made on your part.

It might be wise to cease and desist from using definitives where they aren't warranted. You say cannot and that is an opinion. My reading of the text of these two chapters (again this morning) do not support your comment. If anything, these tidbits I've cited, support the notion that the rebel Uruk-hai are in fact Gorbag's troops." I am still looking at this situation with an open mind. Maybe you need to reread the last chapter of TT and the first chapter of RotK to get a fresher perspective.

To Greenwood's last

No, when you list all the 'enemy reports' Shagrat received in none of them is it clear that all of Gorbag's band are dead. You have mistaken what the reader knows from what the character knows. Remember he sent out his last subordinate orc to do a 'recon' and that orc refused to go out again and was killed for his insubordination. It is also clear that on his last patrol (the subordinate orc) that his comrades were killed and that he is unsure if there are more of Gorbag's band out there. Plus as Tolkein, a veteran of war, would know. The enemy situation is NEVER what your reports (or the compilation of those reports) say it is.

My interest in this is NOT really whether Uruks = Uruk Hai but rather the logic and LOTR passages that lead either side to come to their conclusion. My point here is that the rebel Uruk-Hai referred to in the Cirith Ungol incident is NOT ambigious but clear. Of course, totally aside from that is the unexplained detail of how such a pack of Isengarders would get past the Rohirrim, the Men of Gondor and the armies and patrols of the Dark Lord

Anyway, it's not something I'll continue to debate on (the original debate is all sematics to me), just wanted to interject my view on the logic.

Have fun, I'm going back to wondering if good orcs and trolls fought with the Last Alliance at Dagorland ;-)

Grond and JeffF.

I do not have the books with me where I am, but I have read these chapters several times of late. The sequence the Tower of Cirith Ungol chapter (as I remember it) is that Sam hears Shagrat talking to his underling Snaga, who has already encountered Sam and run from him because of the hidden power of the Ring. Shagrat says he killed the last of Gorbag's boys but was wounded in the process. Snaga tells Shagrat that all of their lads are dead. That is why Shagrat tells Snaga that he [Snaga] must go. Snaga refuses and Shagrat chases Snaga around the base of the upper tower before Snaga ducks into the tower and disappears. Shagrat ceases the chase, goes to the ramparts and looks over and calls, while he stares down into the lower courtyard Sam notices one of the apparently dead orcs reaching for a sword to stab Shagrat. Shagrat hears the hiss of breath of this orc and leaps on him and finishing off. Shagrat says something along the lines of "Not dead yet Gorbag?" as he kills him. Shagrat then becomes aware of Sam and his sword Sting. Shagrat, who is holding the bundle with the mithril coat deflects Sam with it and makes his getaway. After starting after Shagrat, Sam remembers Snaga and that he still hasn't found Frodo. After going to the top of the tower Sam encounters Snaga [skipping details here], Snaga trips on a ladder, falls and breaks his neck. Thus the only orc to leave the tower of Cirith Ungol was Shagrat and he knew that all the others (except for Snaga) were dead, most especially Gorbag since he killed Gorbag himself. Based on this I said "Gorbag and his boys cannot be the 'rebel Uruk-hai' " because Gorbag and his boys are all dead and Shagrat knows it. We (the readers) witnessed Shagrat being told this and witnessed Shagrat killing Gorbag.

As for the question of how could a pack of Isengard's troops have gotten into Mordor, the question is not relevant. The "higher-ups" are totally confused and have no idea of what is going on. That is the point of the conversation between the tracker orc and the soldier orc. If we are going to ask how could a pack of Isengard troops hae gotten there than why don't we ask, as I said in an earlier post, how could "a great Elf in bright armour" have gotten in? If such an elf warrior existed, how would Shagrat get his armour from him, while the elf warrior kills all the orcs in Cirith Ungol and gets away? As Aragil has said the point of the conversation between the tracker and soldier orc is that the "higher-ups" haven't c clue as to what is going on or what the tracker should be looking for. It could be anything?

Rebel Uruk-Hai

Greenwood,

Your memory is, as usual near impeccable. but we are talking about what Sauron was probably told not Shagrat. Sauron would have been told that Gorbag's band attacked thus would be the origin of any rebels referred to later by Mordor orcs.

Another item. If Uruk-Hai meant Saruman's uruks why would a Mordor orc say "rebel Uruk-Hai?" It's redundant. If the term meant Saruman's Uruks only then it would have been sufficient to just say "Uruk-Hai."

I realize by reading the posts that neither side will be swayed by any flow of logic presented by the opposition. Just wondering why a debate is held under those conditions in the first place. Anyway I knew it was probably a mistake for me to chime in and would probably earn me enemies that I didn't intend on making. I just couldn't resist what I saw as a flaw in logic.

No really I mean it...this time I'm going ;-)

Respects to all my fellow Middle Earth comrades

JeffF.

As Snaga notes: "Gorbag's swine got to the gate first and none of ours [Shagrat's] got out. Lagduf and Muzgash ran through, but they were shot... And they were the last."
Who did the shooting?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
As Snaga notes: "Gorbag's swine got to the gate first and none of ours [Shagrat's] got out. Lagduf and Muzgash ran through, but they were shot... And they were the last."
Who did the shooting?

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Return of the King, p. 217 'Sam was about half way down the path when out of the dark gateway into the red glow there came two orcs running. They did not turn towards him. They wer making for the mai road; but even as they ran they stumbled and fell to the ground and lay still. Sam had seen no arrows, but he guessed that the orcs had been shot down by others on the battlements or hidden in the shadow of the gate.'

I guess they were shot by the Orcs of Gorbag's which made it to the gates. Did Gorbag's archers at the gate later escape?

Return of the King, p. 219 'Sam strode forward (he has just entered the Fortress and can be assumed to be at the gates). The courtyard lay in deep shadow, but he could see that the pavement was strewn with bodies. Right at his feet were two orc-archers with knives sticking in their backs.'

Guess Gorbag's lot was pretty well taken care of.

Tar Elenion

Tar Elenion:
Greenwood and I are arguing that this passage is not very clear. We think it is ambiguous. What are you, arguing?
1)That it is not ambiguous, and that without a doubt the Uruk-hai refer to the Uruk-hai of Mordor, which are mentioned nowhere else in the narrative. Or...
2)That it is ambiguous, but the most likely Orcs to be in Minas Morgul were the Orcs of Gorbag.

If 1: Let's assume there are Uruk-hai in both Isengard and Mordor. This then explains why Tolkien has Ugluk and the troops at Helm's Deep say 'Uruk-hai of Isengard'. Stating where the Uruk-hai are from removes the ambiguity. By not stating where the Orcs are from this passage becomes ambiguous. Now let us assume that the Uruk-hai come only from Isengard. It is now no longer necessary to state where the Uruk-hai are from, so the passage is now no longer ambiguous. Which do you want: A completely unambiguous passage, in which case there are no Uruk-hai in Mordor; or an ambiguous passage, where it is unclear whether the Uruk-hai are from Isengard or Mordor (if the second possibility exists)?

If 2: The Uruk-hai need not refer to the most likely troops. If Hobbits were the most likely things in Mordor, then the Higher-Ups were not picking the most likely troops by guessing a dwarf-man and a great Elf. If a great Elf and dwarf-man were the most likely thing in Mordor, then the higher ups were wrong, and need not be correct about the 'Uruk-hai'.

Jeff F: As I mentioned above, Greenwood and I are not arguing about how 'Isengarders taking out Cirith Ungol' is more logical than Gorbag's group doing this. As to whether or not rebel Uruk-hai would be redundant in the case of Isengarders, I couldn't agree more. Likewise, Saruman and treacherous would be redundant coming from an Orc of Mordor, but that doesn't stop Grishnakh from saying ''Saruman is a fool, and a dirty treacherous fool.' In fact, if you would like to read the entire trilogy again, I'm sure you would find even MORE redundant passages. Doesn't make Tolkien any less of an author, and doesn't really bear on the present debate. Also, the soldier Orc and tracker were not the results of a report by Shagrat. He did not report to Barad-dur until March 17th, the same day that Sam and Frodo come across the pair of Orcs. Unless Sauron was dispatching Orcs via a working teleporter system, these Orcs were not responding to a report of Shagrat's, who at any rate could have ID'd Sam and Frodo better than 'a dwarf-man and a great Elf'. Further more, if the Higher-Ups were supposed to be so accurate in picking the rebel Uruk-hai, why did they blow it on Frodo and Sam? Clearly, dwarf-man (wrong), great Elf (wrong), and Uruk-hai of Isengard (wrong) is a better match than dwarf-man (wrong), great Elf (wrong), and Uruk-hai of Minas-Morgul (right). Why are we allowing them to be wrong for dwarf-man and great Elf, and then constraining them to be right with the Orcs?

What sort of an orc is Grishnakh?

The Two Towers, p.20 'And Aragorn looked on the slain, and he said: "Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!" ..."S is for Sauron," said Gimli. "That is easy to read." "Nay!" said Legolas. "Sauron does not use the Elf-runes." "Neither does he use his right name, nor permit it to be spelt or spoken," said Aragorn. "And he does not use white. The Orcs in the service of Barad-dur use the sign of the Red Eye."'

I have recently re-read this passage after having been clued in to deeper meaning by the 'Saruman's Military Intelligence' thread. Having re-read several times, and now typed it out here, it is becoming clearer to me that there are no Orcs of Mordor described here. The first umpteen times I read it I took 'here lie many that are not folk of Mordor' to mean 'in addition to those of Mordor, here are many others.' However, looking closer at the passage, there is no mention of any Orcs from Mordor. In fact, if there had been Orcs of Mordor present, then Gimli is hardly likely to have mistook an S for Sauron, as he would have been looking at the token of the Red Eye as he spoke. Additionally, Aragorn could have illustrated his point by saying 'This is the token of Sauron' while pointing to one of their helms. However, he seems to resort to describing the token without showing an example to Gimli, which seems to imply that there is no example at hand. I think this explains why Grishnakh is so easily driven off. He is initially a messenger of Mordor, trying to get the Moria Orcs to bring the captives to Mordor. However, the Uruk-hai take over the band, and Grishnakh has to cross the Anduin before he can come back with troops loyal to Mordor. Perhaps Grishnakh is one of the Orcs sent by Mordor to Moria, referring to pages 421 and 445 of Fellowship of the Ring? Anyway, with regard to this thread, I think it is interesting to speculate as to what sort of Orc Grishnakh might be. He is described later:

The Two Towers, p.62 'In the twilight he saw a large black Orc, probably Ugluk, standing facing Grishnakh, a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground. Round them were many smaller goblins.'

A thing to note here: Grishnakh is shorter than Ugluk, but is large compared to the Orcs of Moria, hence 'many smaller goblins.' The description here of Grishnakh is echoed when he finally brings his troops back to join Ugluk:

The Two Towers, p. 68 'From that direction there now came hoarse cries, and there was Grishnakh again, and at his back a couple of score of others like him: long-armed crook-legged Orcs. They had a red eye painted on their shields.'

Clearly Grishnakh is not one-of-a-kind. In fact, he commands troops just like him, and here we see the token of the red eye that was missing from the slain at Amon hen. I have often wondered what sort of troops Sauron would send to intercept the Fellowship, when Saruman sent his best: the Uruk-hai. Surely Sauron would likewise send his best- and here they are, with crooked legs and long arms. Does Tolkien ever describe other such Orcs?

The Two Towers, p. 441 '"As I said, the Big Bosses, ay," his voice sank almost to a whisper, "ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped, you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks."

This is Gorbag addressing Shagrat. The whispering implies that Gorbag only intends to be heard by himself and Shagrat. This implies that the "we've" of "we've got to look out." is in reference to himself and Shagrat. Which in turn implies that Uruks is also a reference to himself and Shagrat. Unfortunately we never get much of a physical description of Gorbag, but we do get one of Shagrat:

The Return of the King, p. 223 'Behind him came Shagrat, a large orc with long arms that, as he ran crouching, reached to the ground.'

This passage is especially interesting when considering it with the descriptions of Grishnakh and his boys: 'a short crook-legged creature, very broad and with long arms that hung almost to the ground', and 'a couple of score of others like him: long-armed crook-legged Orcs.' What springs out from this passage of course is the repeated mention of long arms. From the Ugluk - Shagrat conversation we can resonably infer that Shagrat is a Uruk (what other sort of Orc would be captain of an entire tower?). I think from the similarity in descriptions it would be reasonable to infer that Grishnakh and Shagrat are the same variety of Orc- Uruks. It could be argued that all Orcs have long arms, but the Orcs of Moria are never described as such. Neither are the Uruk-hai:

The Two Towers, p. 20 'There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs; and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the ows of Men.'

The Two Towers, p. 67 'The hobbits were left with the Isengarders: a grim band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords.'

Again Tolkien seems to be repeating himself to link up a group of Orcs in our memories. If the Uruk-hai were really the same as the Uruks, here would be the optimal place to describe them similarly. Yet he does not: thrice he refers to the 'long arms' of the Uruks, twice he refers to the swarthiness and slant-eyes of the Isengarders. I am resigned to the fact that we will never have a 100% clear answer as to whether the Uruks are the same as the Uruk-hai, but surely this description is reasonable evidence that they were different.

Originally posted by aragil


I guess they were shot by the Orcs of Gorbag's which made it to the gates. Did Gorbag's archers at the gate later escape?
[two dead archers described]
Guess Gorbag's lot was pretty well taken care of.

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Good, now next part of question.
Why were the archers left at the gates?
(Remember Gorbags boys got there first).

The Uruk-hai are Orc-Human hybrids

Well, I've tried this one many times before, but perhaps one last go:

The Two Towers, p. 96 "He has taken up with foul folk, with the Orcs. Brm, hoom! Worse than that he has been doing something to them; something dangerous. For these Isengarders are more like wicked Men. It is a mark of evil things that came in the Great Darkness that they cannot abide the Sun; but Saruman's Orcs can endure it, even if they hate it. I wonder what he has done? Are they Men he has ruined, or has he blended the races of Orcs and Men? That would be a black evil!"

The Two Towers, p. 180 "But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun," said Gamling. "And neither will the wild men of the hills. Do you not hear their voices."

The Two Towers, p. 184 "The Orcs yelled and jeered. 'Come down! Come down!' they cried. 'If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come down. Bring out your skulking king!'
" 'The king stays or comes at his own will,' said Aragorn.
" 'Then what are you doing here?' they answered. 'Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai.'
" 'I looked out to see the dawn,' said Aragorn.
" 'What of the dawn?' they jeered. 'We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. .... "

The Two Towers, p. 32 '"Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?" said Gimli. "Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun, yet these have done so," said Legolas.'

Morgoth's Ring, page unknown 'Finally, there is a cogent point though horrible to relate. It became clear in time that undoubted Men could under the domination of Morgoth or his agents in a few generations be reduced almost to the Orc-level of mind and habits; and then they would or could be made to mate with Orcs, producing new breeds, often larger and more cunning. There is no doubt that long afterwards, in the Third Age, Saruman rediscovered this, or learned of it in lore, and in his lust for mastery committed this, his wickedest deed: interbreeding of Orcs and Men, producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile...'

The Two Towers, p.20 'He searched in the pile and on the ground about and found not a few that were undamaged and longer in shaft than such arrows as the Orcs were accustoned to use. He looked at them closely. And Aragorn looked on the slain, and he said: "Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!" There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs; and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men.'

The Two Towers, p. 67 'The hobbits were left with the Isengarders: a grim band, four score at least of large, swart, slant-eyed Orcs with great bows and short broad-bladed swords.'

Orcs generally do not go around in the day. The Uruk-hai do. Gamling covers all of 'these creatures of Isengard' with his description of 'half orcs and goblin men .... and neither will the wild men of the hills.' He does not say that 'normal Orcs will quail' because there are no normal Orcs at Helm's deep. Tolkien describes the men-orcs of Isengard (not to be confused with Orc-men wielding large axes) as being larger than normal orcs. He also describes the Uruk-hai as being large and using arrows longer than those used by normal Orcs, bows as long as those used by men, and straight swords rather than the curved scimitars of Orcs. He doesn't say that Men also use straight swords here, but I have a hard time imagining Anduril as a scimitar. Clearly the Uruk-hai use larger weapons because they are bigger than normal orcs. They also use 'human-like' weapons. Curiously, Tolkien specifically says that breeding men with orcs produced a larger variety of Orcs. And here we have Isengard Orcs who are larger than normal Orcs, who use 'man-like' weapons, and who are tolerant of the sun. Is it really so much of a stretch to say that these Uruk-hai are orc-human hybrids?

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion


Good, now next part of question.
Why were the archers left at the gates?
(Remember Gorbags boys got there first).

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I'm not sure what you are saying here (or why you are pursuing this tangent instead of addressing my other, more relevant posts), but here's (I hope) the answer you are looking for. The two Orcs that Sam sees shot are Cirith Ungol Orcs, Lagduf and Musgash as they are later identified. They are shot by archers of Gorbag's who got to the gates first. Gorbag's troops are not trying to escape, they are trying to make sure none of Shagrat's boys escape to raise the alarm. Unfortunately for the pair of archers at the gate, someone was able to knife them. Perhaps Radbug, in a last heroic act. Who knows, ask Tolkien. Lagduf and Musgash (not to be confused with Snaga and Snaga) are clearly shot from the gate, which is where Snaga says the boys of Gorbag went. The archer-boys of Gorbag are equally clearly knifed, so none of Gorbag's boys got out. Pointless for this thread, because even if Gorbag's boys did get out it would have nothing to do with Uruks or Uruk-hai. It's Shagrat's lot that would spread the alarm, and it is a Shagrat-like Orc with the tracker that complains about 'rebel Uruk-hai'. If we want to discuss tangents let's make them their own thread, and not try to side-step the issue here.

Why the Uruks belong in Morrrdorrr, while the Uruk-hai reside in Isengard:

Contention 1: The Orcs of Isengard always identify themselves as 'Uruk-hai', never as 'Uruks', or 'Us plain-old-Orcs'

The Two Towers, p. 61 "We are the fighting Uruk-hai! We slew the great warrior. We took the prisoners. We are the servants of Saruman the Wise, the White Hand: the Hand that gives us man's-flesh to eat. We came out of Isengard, and led you here ..... "

The Two Towers, p. 67 "Leave them to me then! No killing, as I've told you before; but if you want to throw away what we've come all the way to get, throw it away! I'll look after it. Letting the fighting Uruk-hai do the work, as usual. ..... "

The Two Towers, pp. 68-69 "You seem to know a lot. ... More than is good for you I guess. Perhaps those in Lugburz might wonder how, and why. But in the meantime the Uruk-hai of Isengard can do the dirty work, as usual. ...."

The Two Towers, p 184 'The Orcs yelled and jeered. "Come down! Come down!" they cried. "If you wish to speak to us, come down! Bring out your king! We are the fighting Uruk-hai. We will fetch him from his hole, if he does not come down. Bring out your skulking king!" "The king stays or comes at his own will," said Aragorn. "Then what are you doing here?" they answered. "Why do you look out? Do you wish to see the greatness of our army? We are the fighting Uruk-hai." "I looked out to see the dawn," said Aragorn. "What of the dawn?" they jeered. 'We are the Uruk-hai: we do not stop the fight for night or day, for fair weather or for storm. .... "'

We only have one definite Uruk ID himself, and he does so as:
The Two Towers, p. 441 '"As I said, the Big Bosses, ay," his voice sank almost to a whisper, "ay, even the Biggest, can make mistakes. Something nearly slipped, you say. I say, something has slipped. And we've got to look out. Always the poor Uruks to put slips right, and small thanks."'

Funny how consistently the Uruk-hai call themselves the Uruk-hai, yet the one chance an Orc of Mordor gets to do the same, he uses the term Uruks. Hmmm.....


Contention 2: The Uruk-hai are sun-tolerant, which is something strange for Orcs
This is something we are told from the Silmarillion, through the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. Even Orcs which appear to be Sauron's elite Uruks are not as fearless as the Uruk-hai demonstrate themselves to be in the full sunlight. When our good professor spends so much time telling us how much Orcs hate the sun, and then suddenly begins to describe sun-tolerant Orcs, there is a good chance he is doing it on purpose.

1)The Silmarillion, p. 127 'At the uprising of the great light the servants of Morgoth fled into Angband, and Fingolfin passed unopposed through the fastness of Dor Daedeloth while his foes hid beneath the earth.'
This is the first ever reaction of Orcs (and Balrogs) to the sun, and as near as I can discover, it was fairly typical of their reaction right up until TA 3019.

2)Unfinished Tales, p. 285 'The red rim of the sun gleamed out from the clouds as it went down behind the mountains. ... The Dunedain had gone scarcely a mile when the Orcs moved again. This time they did not charge, but used all their forces. They came down on a wide front, which bent into a crescent and soon closed into an unbroken ring about the Dunedain.'
I wonder why the Orcs waited until dark for their second assualt, and if it might have to do with why the second assault was successful.

3)The Hobbit, p. 100 "We must be getting on at once, now we are a little rested," he said. "They will be out after us in hundreds when night comes on; and already shadows are lengthening."
Here we have Gandalf urging the Dwarves (and Hobbit) to get away from the Goblin holes before night, which is when the Goblins will come out looking for them.

4)The Fellowship of the Ring, p. 433 "The Sun sinks early. The Orcs will not, maybe, come out till after dusk, but we must be far away before nightfall."
Of course there were Uruks in Moria, but still the Orcs did not come after the party until nightfall. Can anyone imagine Ugluk and his boys waiting until night to follow the Fellowship?

5)The Two Towers, pp. 64-65 '"But what are we going to do at sunrise?" said some of the Northerners. "Go on running," said Ugluk. "What do you think? Sit on the grass and wait for the Whiteskins to join the picnic?" "But we can't run in the sunlight." "You'll run with me behind you," said Ugluk.'
Here we see Ugluk and the Uruk-hai succeeding where the Uruks in Moria failed. Not only do the Uruk-hai come out at night, but they drive the runts of Moria out too.

6)The Two Towers, p. 69 "Then he saw that the sun was sinking, falling behind the Misty Mountains; shadows reached over the land. The soldiers of Mordor lifted their heads and also began to put on speed.
These soldiers of Mordor are Uruks (see post http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45589#post45589). Yet they clearly do better when the sun is off their backs (or is it mere coincidence that they run faster the moment Tolkien describes the sun going down). The Uruk-hai of Isengard do equally well with sun or no (they care not for the sun).

7)The Return of the King, p. 138 'For morning came, morning and a wind from the sea; now darkness was removed, and the hosts of Mordor wailed and terror took them, and they fled, and died, and the hoofs of wrath rode over them.'
Does anybody believe that Sauron would not send Uruks to the battle of Pelannor? Yet here all of the hosts of Mordor are fleeing, Uruk, normal Orc, and Man (and troll-men) alike, just after the mention of that pesky sun. Do the men in the group ever save face?

8)The Return of the King, p. 148 'But wherever the mumakil came there the horses would not go, but blenched and swerved away; and the great monsters were unfought, and stood like towers of defence, and the Haradrim rallied about them.'

9)The Return of the King, p. 151 'Hard fighting and long labour they had still; for the Southrons were bold men and grim, and fierce in despair; and the Easterlings were strong and war hardened and asked for no quarter.'
Apparently the men do regain their composure, and go down fighting. Surely there is another mention of the Orcs, especially if the Uruks are sun tolerant like the Uruk-hai?

10)The Return of the King, p. 150 'East rode the knights of Dol Amroth driving the enemy before them: troll-men and Variags and orcs that hated the sunlight.'
Bah! Cowards until the end. Could it be beyond coincidence that Tolkien mentions that the Orcs of Mordor hate the sunlight? I don't recall any such passage during the carnage at Helm's Deep.


Contention 3: The Uruk-hai are referred to as a new breed with strange un-orcish qualities, the Uruks have been around since TA 2475 (544 years by the time of Helm's Deep), so the two are unlikely to be the same breed.

The Two Towers, p. 20 'He searched in the pile and on the ground about and found not a few that were undamaged and longer in shaft than such arrows as the Orcs were accustoned to use. He looked at them closely. And Aragorn looked on the slain, and he said: "Here lie many that are not folk of Mordor. Some are from the North, from the Misty Mountains, if I know anything of Orcs and their kinds. And here are others strange to me. Their gear is not after the manner of Orcs at all!" There were four goblin-soldiers of greater stature, swart, slant-eyed, with thick legs and large hands. They were armed with short broad-bladed swords, not with the curved scimitars usual with Orcs; and they had bows of yew, in length and shape like the bows of Men.'

The Two Towers, p. 32 '"Surely even Orcs must pause on the march?" said Gimli. "Seldom will Orcs journey in the open under the sun, yet these have done so," said Legolas.'

The Two Towers, p. 48 "And others, too, came out of the forest. Great Orcs, who also bore the White Hand of Isengard: that kind is stronger and more fell than all others."

The Two Towers, p. 180 '"But these creatures of Isengard, these half-orcs and goblin-men that the foul craft of Saruman has bred, they will not quail at the sun," said Gamling.'


Contention 4: Uruks of Grishnakh are clearly described in opposition to the Uruk-hai of Ugluk

please see:
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45589#post45589


Conention 5: Uruk-hai are half-orcs, which nobody has ever accused the Uruks of being (that is one of Ugluk's faults

please see:
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45605#post45605


Not 100% proof, but pretty convincing IMO Please note that these quotes stand together. One or two of them may be somewhat ambiguous alone, but taken together they seem to give a fairly clear meaning.

Further posts to look at on this issue:
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44669#post44669
Which describes what the term 'Uruk-hai' might mean linguistically, and why it would be different than plain 'Uruk'

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44573#post44573
Which describes other creatures which might gain sun-tolerance through hybridization with humans

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=44923#post44923
Which describes why the only use of Uruk-hai which might apply to Mordor Orcs is so darned ambiguous. Strike point number 3 on this one. Damn! I liked that one.

and finally:
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=42280#post42280
Which addresses the passage in UT which differentiates Uruks (of Saruman) from Orc-men.

In any case if olog refers to a variety of Troll, it is yet not odd from a linguistic standpoint that they (can) be collectively referred to as "Olog-folk".

Click to expand...

Cian

The above argument depends on -hai meaning "folk". This is an unproven assumption.

Aragil

You are far more articulate than I.

Now it is off to work.

Originally posted by Greenwood
Cian, the above argument depends on -hai meaning "folk". This is an unproven assumption.

Click to expand...

Well, my comment to Aragil simply includes that the door is not "closed" to that linguistic point, or possibility, that -hai can still mean "folk". Ok it may be an obvious enough statement considering (can) as in my comment, but the context seemed to allow its tossing in where I tossed it.

Further illumination on the above post:

Because of constraints on number of words in a post, I was not able to conclude my above post with the extended babbling that is my want. Please consider this post a the conclusion of the above.

I am well aware that an example of one is not persuasive at all, that a single quote is not persuasive is the reason that post
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=45629#post45629
contains 19 quotes from the text, ranging from the sun tolerance of the Uruk-hai, to the seeming difference in use of self-reference with Uruks and Uruk-hai, to ways that the Uruk-hai are described as something new, whilst Uruks have been around for 543 years. In the above post I also give links to posts in which I attempt to explain why Uruks might be used in the Fords of Isen (beyond the fact that Tolkien was dead when the passage was published, and hence never had to explain to an editor why Uruks in one instance, Uruk-hai in another), and posts in which I reasonably (IMO) relate the orc-men of Morgoth's Ring to the Uruk-hai. Not a single one of these is definitive proof by itself. It is when taken together that all of these various issues come to a (seemingly) singular conclusion- Uruks are one variety of Orcs: crook-legged, long armed, and no more sun-tolerant than the next; while Uruk-hai are another (though doubtlessly related) breed: large, thick-legged, swart, slant eyed, using man-like weapons, and especially tolerant of the sun!!! I have yet to see an argument to the contrary which cohesively covers all of the above evidence.

ps Cian- I have since struck my hyphenation argument, despite the fact that I liked it so much. Apparently in Greenwood's edition (original Houghton Mifflin version predating my Ballantine versions) the hyphen was included. Oh well, I really did like my argument, even if no-one else buys it.

Aragil and Greenwood, no one can accuse either of you of not putting up a logical and massive volume of evidence to support your case. No one can accuse either of you of not reaching a logical conclusion based upon the interpretation of your evidence. I applaud both of your efforts to make your case. Good job!!

PS I'm still not convinced either way!!

What exactly are Orcs & Uruk-Hai?

How were the Uruk-Hai made and what exactly are the orcs?

I doubt whether I can answer this fully, but I will attept to:

Orcs....Well....they're orcish...hehe.... Anyway, they are believed to be corrupted elves from the First Age of Middle Earth. No one really knows the truth, but often in the First age, elves would go out exploring, and never come back...I can't really explain what they looked like because I can't explain something that ugly. Sigh... Orcs were the servants of Sauron and Saruman. Most orcs (see below) are blinded by sunlight, so they prefer dark holes...

Uruk-hai. They are a breed of orcs, as a comparison Alaskan Huskies of Orcs if the above were Labradors. The Uruk-hai endured a lot. They could run in the sunlight. The could probably run faster in sunlight than normal orcs could in darkness. The Uruk-hai, some say, were orcs bred with men, then inbred to make the Alaskan Husky...

Originally posted by Mike B
I doubt whether I can answer this fully, but I will attept to:

Orcs....Well....they're orcish...hehe.... Anyway, they are believed to be corrupted elves from the First Age of Middle Earth. No one really knows the truth, but often in the First age, elves would go out exploring, and never come back...I can't really explain what they looked like because I can't explain something that ugly. Sigh... Orcs were the servants of Sauron and Saruman. Most orcs (see below) are blinded by sunlight, so they prefer dark holes...

Uruk-hai. They are a breed of orcs, as a comparison Alaskan Huskies of Orcs if the above were Labradors. The Uruk-hai endured a lot. They could run in the sunlight. The could probably run faster in sunlight than normal orcs could in darkness. The Uruk-hai, some say, were orcs bred with men, then inbred to make the Alaskan Husky...

Click to expand...

Yeah it is pretty much that. There was whole thread on uruk-hai versus orcs earlier in this forum if you want more info! They were taken (orcs) from the elves corrupted and bread with other creatures untill they looked hideous and mean. Uruk hai is a later development of the orcs. In brief. Very brief. Aigght.