What do we know about the two "blue" Istari?

Mr. Underhill · Nov 27, 2001

I remember reading somewhere that there were actually five of the Istari. Saruman the White, Gandalf the Gray, Radagast the Brown, and two other "blue" wizards, who ventured on into the East of Middle-Earth. Does anyone know if Tolkien ever went into further detail concerning these two "blue" wizards?

Telchar · Nov 27, 2001

I know that this has been discussed before, it just took me a while to find out where it had been discussed..

About the Istari

Mr. Underhill · Nov 27, 2001

Thanx Telchar, that was very interesting.

Walter · Dec 13, 2001

I just stumbled across this thread - alas - the thread You gave as a link seems to have vanished...

Flame of Utumno · Dec 17, 2001

For info on the Blue Wizards (Ithryn Luin), go to 'Unfinished Tales' p.390 and also see note 3. According to Tolkien's letter they went as emissaries to distant lands in the east, completely out of range of Numenorean influence. They most probably turned evil or were seduced by Sauron.

Grond · Dec 21, 2001

Actually I remember somewhere in JRRT's letters that he said the Blue Wizards did much good in the Far East and swayed many who previously worshiped Sauron to turn from him.

Cian, you've posted about this before.... please find the reference for me.

LugniGrond · Dec 23, 2001

i think the blue wizards names were alatar and pallando

Black Horseman · Dec 26, 2001

I believe that Sarumen killed them when he bring them to far east because his the only one who knows and didn't like any other Istari than himself, that brave Saruman...

Cian · Jan 12, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
Cian, you've posted about this before.... please find the reference for me.

Just saw this:

In thread "Let's discuss" (Hall of Fire) Telchar had already quoted from PoMe on the "Blues", so I followed with the Letters quote for interesting comparison.

I think those are what you're looking for Grond, at least the PoMe quote in any case. If you still are looking that is

Grond · Jan 13, 2002

Well Cian, since my original post, I have gotten the HoMe for Christmas and found and posted the references myself on another similar thread that I can't find... but I'll be darned if I'm gonna type it again.

Thanks for responding anyway.

Walter · Jan 13, 2002

Originally posted by Grond
...and posted the references myself on another similar thread that I can't find... but I'll be darned if I'm gonna type it again.

...hehehe, dontcha hate when You can't find Your own postings anymore?

Úlairi · Feb 24, 2002

The names of the two Ithryn Luin was Alatar and Pallando and they were both Maiar of Orome!!

Grond · Feb 25, 2002

Originally posted by Ulairi
The names of the two Ithryn Luin was Alatar and Pallando and they were both Maiar of Orome!!

That is their names from Unfinished Tales. In The Peoples of Middle-earth they are called Morinehtar and Romestamo which is Darkness-slayer and East-helper. From the Chapter Last Writings sub heading The Five Wizards...They must have had very great influence on the history of the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East... who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have ...outnumbered the West.

Hama · Mar 4, 2002

Thanks for clearing it up, Grond. Tolkien did hint (check the Istari section of the Unfinished Tales) that there were more than just five. Only five came to the north though. However, was Sauron's reach to the south and east of ME enough to justify sending istari there?

Beleg Strongbow · Mar 5, 2002

Originally posted by Hama
Thanks for clearing it up, Grond. Tolkien did hint (check the Istari section of the Unfinished Tales) that there were more than just five. Only five came to the north though. However, was Sauron's reach to the south and east of ME enough to justify sending istari there?

Yes it would be stronger there. That is where harad, and the other evil men came from as well as mordor's food and water.

Grond · Mar 5, 2002

In Unfinished Tales it states of the Ithryn Luin (the Blue Wizards),

"...for they passed into the East with Curunir (Saruman), but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, it not now known..."

As you can see from this quote, the five were composed of Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast and the two Blue Wizards. In UT, they are named Alatar and Pallando and pass into the East with Saruman. Years later, Saruman returns but the Blue Wizards do not. No further explanation is given in UT.

Tolkien expanded upon his thoughts of the Blue Wizards in later writings which were published under the Peoples of Middle-earth, which I cited earlier in this thread. But, based on these two resources it is apparent that the five wizards who came to the North of Middle-earth are the five we are speaking of and though others may have gone to the South, they are not mentioned by name or reference other than the one already cited.

Walter · Mar 5, 2002

In Letter [180] from Jan 14, 1956 Tolkien says

There is hardly any reference in The Lord of the Rings to things that do not actually exist* on its own plane (of secondary or sub-creational reality):...

And in the footnote he states: * The cats of Queen Berúthiel and the names and adventures of the other two wizards (5 minus Saruman, Gandalf, Radagast) are all that I recollect.

And in Letters [211] from Oct 14, 1958 Tolkien's answer to a reader's question "What were the colours of the two wizards mentioned but not named in the book?" is:

I have not named the colours because I do not know them. I doubt if they had distinctive colours. Distinction was only required in the case of the three who remained in the relatively small area of the North-west. I really do not know anything clearly about the other two, since they do not concern the history of the N.W. I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenorean range, missionaries to enemy-occupied lands as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear that they failed, as Saruman did, though doubtless in different ways; and I suspect thy were founders or beginners of secret cults and 'magic' traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

Grond · Mar 5, 2002

Walter, surely you realize that Middle-earth was evolving all the time and that JRRT continued to record the mythology and discover new things he had overlooked. I'm sure that the UT quotes and the HoMe quotes were derived from material that Tolkien had deciphered after the letters you cite were written.

What are you doing coming back here after being absent for weeks and raining on my parade?????

Hama · Mar 5, 2002

Yes, I think on this forum people often forget that there are certain inconsistencies in Tolkien's work as his own thoughts about ME changed over the years.

Walter · Mar 6, 2002

LOL, Grond, thanks for the warm "welcome back"

I am well aware that the passages I cited from the "Letters" do not seem really consistent with the the passages from the UT and HoME, a fact which is even mentioned in the notes to the letter cited above, but nonetheless I found the passages worth being mentioned.

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