A ? about the 🧙Istari

[Red Istar]

Hey there!

A question: if the Istari were forbidden to directly confront Sauron, then how did the Council drive the Necromancer out of Mirkwood?

Adam

 

[Beleg]

The army of Lorien probably attacked Amon Lanc.

 

[Eriol]

Probably with taunts. Like the Frenchmen in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail".



Seriously now -- welcome Adam!

A few things I remember about this subject:

1. The Istari were not forbidden to directly confront Sauron, I think; they were forbidden to "unveil their power", to use it openly, whether against Sauron or not.

2. The Istari, even if allowed to confront Sauron, were no match for him; they all feared him very much. This, added to my recollection that they were under no such ban, means that they would never confront Sauron by themselves.

3. However, Sauron was not expelled by the Istari alone, but by the forces of the White Council. This included Círdan, Elrond and Galadriel; I don't think that Círdan lent much help, but Elrond and Galadriel surely did.

4. Sauron was only expelled in appearance; he feigned retreat.

Adding all of that, I think the scenario is: The Istari, plus a lot of Elves from Lórien and Rivendell, made an attack on Dol Guldur. I think this is enough "manpower" to make it less of a joke. Sauron then retreated and the good duys patted themselves on their backs. Little did they know...

 

[Red Istar]

Thanks, Eriol!

Which brings me to a new question:

how far can a wizard go without unveiling himself?

 

[Eriol]

I'd say fireworks in the Shire (Gandalf), speaking with birds and beasts (Radagast), or daunting people with scary voice effects (Saruman).

We never see them doing things much more powerful than that until Gandalf the White appears on the scene. Also, I don't think their "power" is magic as we usually understand it; Galadriel's words about magic come to my mind. Gandalf's tricks with fire are mostly attributable to his ring.

They were also tough nuts to crack . Gandalf took a Balrog in a one-on-one...

 

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Eriol
Gandalf's tricks with fire are mostly attributable to his ring.

I thought that the ring was used to rekindle hearts in a world that had turned cold....or somthing like that?

 

[Red Istar]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
I thought that the ring was used to rekindle hearts in a world that had turned cold....or somthing like that?

Same here... there is also the matter of Gandalf's shutting spell in moria, and the fact that in the Hobbit he killed several orcs with a flash of light.

 

[Lantarion]

Originally posted by Adam The Red
there is also the matter of Gandalf's shutting spell in moria, and the fact that in the Hobbit he killed several orcs with a flash of light.

Ah, but he was a Maia, after all.. Maybe those two instances could be put down as "unspecified Maia/Istar powers".

Welcome to the forum, Eric... I mean Adam!

 

[Celebthôl]

Originally posted by Lantarion
Welcome to the forum, Eric... I mean Adam!

My guess....one of Lantys friends

 

[Red Istar]

okay, now you've lost me.

Perhaps the Istari can only use their more impressive powers when in grave danger; when it is the only thing between death and survival... hence the shutting spell, the Balrog, and the orcs. It seemed to me that Gandalf was awfully reluctant to use the shutting spell...

 

[Celebthôl]

I dunno, you need a door to shut first.

 

[Eriol]

Hehe, nice avatar Lantarion .

I'm going to write a crazy notion of mine here. I don't remember seeing it explicitly stated anywhere.

Think of the instances of "good magic" (not Sauron's or Saruman's devices) in the books. Let's focus on the Hobbit and LotR.

The Hobbit:

Thorin's map (and the writing that could be seen by moonlight)
The Enchanted River in Mirkwood
Erebor's hidden door
Gandalf tricks with fire

FotR:

Elrond commanding the Bruinen
Healing?
Gandalf tricks with fire
Orc-detecting swords
The Doors of Durin
The shutting spell
The "Lórien effect"
The Mirror of Galadriel

After FotR Gandalf the White is around, with his power 'unveiled', and we don't see much new 'veiled magic'.

Now let's filter out the "rings influence". The Mirror of Galadriel, and possibly the "Lórien effect" (time stopping), are due to Galadriel's ring; Gandalf tricks with fire to his ring; and Elrond's command of the Bruinen to his ring. (I think).

We're left with the work of craftsmen, dwarves and elves (doors and swords), and perhaps Elrond's skill with healing, though I would not really ascribe that to magic. I have this weird notion that Elrond's skill comes from being a Half-Elf, i.e., with a great control over his fëa (the spirit) and hröa (the body) like the elves, but with "first-hand" knowledge of men's bodies and souls. (And hobbits, it seems ).

Gosh, I'm rambling .

This train of thought was started by Gandalf's words to Merry (I think) at the Doors of Durin, that he "once knew all the words used in all the tongues to open doors" (or something like that). Where did he learn that? Surely, in Aman. Gandalf did not take a crash course in opening spells with Círdan.



So, we have Olórin, the wisest of the Maiar, trying to remember things from his "youth" in Aman, the words used by people to open doors.

Is this a "Maia power"? Or only a "Maia knowledge"?

I'd say the latter. The same goes for the shutting spell.

In other words, it is not native power; it is knowledge. But how could people use words to command stones or matter in general? Is that not magic? I don't think so. I think that Elves and Dwarves really had a degree of control over matter unimaginable to us. We would call it "magic", a breach of nature's laws, but they wouldn't; to them it is knowledge.

Summing up a somewhat disconnected post:

All instances of "good magic" can be considered as ordinary control of matter by wise beings;

The Istari, as "veiled Maiar", had no special powers above that; however, they had great knowledge, above and beyond any individual elf or dwarf.

All other instances of "intrusive magic" (i.e., intrusive against nature, and not along it) are rooted in evil; or at least in the Elven Rings.

 

[Celebthôl]

Good theory

But the Elven rings were used for peace, not to control the fords or bruinen.
I believe that Vilya (sp) kept Rivendell "mystical" and hidden.
That Nenya kept Lorien frozen in time, and made the mirror of Galadreil work.
That Narya did...i dont know....but i really cant see Círdan setting off fireworks...

Who was the Valar of fire? That Arien was a Maia of? If she was of the same order of Olorin it would make more sense i think, with all the fire spells and fireworks.

 

[Eriol]

Originally posted by Celebthôl
Who was the Valar of fire? That Arien was a Maia of? If she was of the same order of Olorin it would make more sense i think, with all the fire spells and fireworks.

Olórin was a Maia from Nienna's people, very strong in pity and compassion, and in understanding.

The Ring he had was the Ring of Fire; I think it had some relationship with Fire, actual fire, and not only the fire in people's hearts. Círdan never used it much before Gandalf arrived...

And routing Ringwraiths seems like a good way to keep Rivendell hidden .

 

[Helcaraxë]

Actually, Eriol, I seem to remember Olorin being a maia of Manwe and Varda's people, but studied under Nienna for a while, just as he dwelt in Lorien once. I might be wrong.

 

[Eriol]

Olórin was a Maia of Nienna, according to the Valaquenta. However, he was chosen as a representative of Manwë/Varda among the Istari, as Gandalf. This is from the essay on the Istari in Unfinished Tales.

I'm 99% sure of that, but I haven't checked.

 

[Ithrynluin]

According to the Valaquenta, you say?

Wisest of the Maiar was Olórin. He too dwelt in Lórien, but his ways took him often to the house of Nienna, and of her he learned pity and patience. For though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts. In later days he was the friend of all the Children of Ilúvatar, and took pity on their sorrows; and those who listened to him awoke from despair and put away the imaginations of darkness.

His ways took him to the house of Nienna and he learned from her. That is far from being even partial proof of his belonging to the 'people' of Nienna.

The only two possibilities that I see are that Olórin/Gandalf is either:

1. A Maia of Manwë and Varda

Unfinished Tales, The Istari
...On another page of jottings clearly belonging to the same period it is said that "Curumo was obliged to take Aiwendil to please Yavanna wife of Aulë." There are here also some rough tables relating the names of the Istari to the names of the Valar: [color=sky blue]Olórin to Manwë and Varda[/color], Curumo to Aulë, Aiwendil to Yavanna, Alatar to Oromë, and Pallando also to Oromë (but this replaces Pallando to Mandos and Nienna).

All of the other Istari belong to the people of their respective Valar, that is quite obvious. If Yavanna wanted Radagast to go, Aulë chose Saruman, and Oromë Alatar and Palando, why should we doubt that Manwë and Varda chose someone from their own 'people'?

2. A Maia of Lórien (Irmo, Olofantur)

Look at the names Olórin and Olofantur. Both contain the same element 'olo(r)' which is dream.

Furthermore, it is said of Lórien

Irmo the younger is the master of [color=sky blue]visions and dreams.[/color]

And of Olórin:

For though he loved the Elves, he walked among them unseen, or in form as one of them, and they did not know whence came the [color=sky blue]fair visions or the promptings of wisdom that he put into their hearts[/color].

And last, but certainly not least:

HoME X: Morgoth's Ring
And wise was Olorin, [color=sky blue]counsellor of Irmo[/color]: secret enemy of the secret evils of Melkor, for his bright visions drove away the imaginations of darkness.

So we could allow for Olórin to be a Maia of Manwë and Varda, but the proof points to him being of Irmo's people and that is defenitely my belief as well.

 

[Eriol]

Yep. You've built a most convincing case, and the result is that I'm convinced. Olórin belonged to Irmo's people.

That Irmo guy had some mighty wise people with him -- after all, I'm 99% sure () that Melian was also of that people.

As for the reason why Manwë and Varda would choose Olórin, well, he was the wisest . Why not? It is more important to have a wise guy there than "one of your own people", in my opinion. He had also taken a crash "do-it-yourself" course on compassion and understanding. He seems the right guy for the job...

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Eriol
That Irmo guy had some mighty wise people with him -- after all, I'm 99% sure () that Melian was also of that people.

HoME X: Morgoth's Ring
But great and fair was Melian of the people of Yavanna...

Eriol, 99 is not your lucky number!

 

[Eriol]

Oh, I'll just burn my copy of Morgoth's Ring then. It was all much simpler when all I had was the Silmarillion...

Or perhaps I'll change my number to 88%.