• Welcome to The Tolkien Forum! Connect with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts and join a community that is over two decades old, and still going strong. We look forward to meeting you.  Register

a new power in Dol Guldur? again?

In this matter, we are in total agreement! You can't get much more authoritative than Gandalf.

As for the decay of Lothlorien and Rivendell, it is my opinion that they would have begun a natural decay at that time, which, I would surmise, would take a significant amount of time in the eyes of Man.
 
Bilbo in the book seems still not to have aged appreciably when Frodo sees him on his first stay in Rivendell.

But after the destruction of the Ring Bilbo begins to fade quickly (at least in comparision to his previous undiminished youthfulness). Even such secondary effects of the Rings are vanishing.
 
immediatly immediatly

OK, so maybe it was a bit sunny, I guess my memory served me wrong and the whole mist thing corrupted my thinking. Perhaps you are correct though, because as the Nazgûl fell immediately after the One Ring was destroyed I'm thinking that maybe the Elvish Rings immediately went out of power and were then just cool looking rings. However, since the Elves (and Istari) bearing the rings were not tied to the One Ring in a physical/mental sense maybe their rings did take some time to fade, quickly in Elvish eyes but a seemingly long time to a mortal man.
Just two possible outcomes.
 
I just disagree with your assertion. My prior quote from Gandalf (who bears one of the Rings) is absolute. He states that, "...and the Power of the Three Rings also is ended..."

Also, all the Rings of Power were subject to the One... because without Sauron's "contribution" the very knowledge by which they were made would not have existed. Though he knew not that the Elven Rings were made, the spells and enchatments he placed in the Ruling Ring would make all Rings created with knowledge gleaned from Sauron, subject to the One... and he knew of their existence the very second he set the Ruling Ring upon his hand.
It is my opinion (which I feel is fully supported by the text) that the moment the Ruling Ring was unmade, power immediately faded from all the other Rings of Power.
 
Yes, and I would have thought that this was undisputable. Some people may use Galadriel's farewell-glitter of Nenya as a sign of some magic, and perhaps so, but any real actions could no longer be performed by any of the Rings of Power, including the Seven and the Nine.
 

So does this statement mean they could use them subtley then? For if they could then they would be able to use their rings. It says also in The Rings of Power, that as soon as Sauron slipped on the Ruling Ring, the Elves were immediatly aware of it. So, they could then know when he had his Ring on, and whenever he had his on they wouldnt put theirs on but when he didnt have the One Ring on, could they wear theirs, and a "subtle way"?
 
The key words in the quote you cited are, "...while Sauron kept the Ruling Ring." The words used openly would more than likely be equated to the "wielded". The Elven Rings were used for preservation. As long as they weren't destroyed (or the Ruling Ring destroyed), the work they had already performed would not be undone... but they could not be used openly (wielded) to do additional works, etc.

At least that is my take on the matter.

Cheers,

grond
 
Ah, finally something that I may comment on, for you all have done a wonderous job in the debate of this topic.

Of the use of the Three​

Indeed, if it was that Sauron ever removed the One from his finger that they could have used the Three in such a way, but that is not so. Think on it, the Eighteen Rings that were given to the races of ME, were given with the soul purpose of enslaving those races to The Dark Lord. With the bearers of the Three removing their rings and not using them until after the Last Alliance, Sauron would continue his search for them through all means at his disposal; and what better way to search than through the Ruler of that which he sought. Furthermore, Sauron commanded the bearers of the Eighteen through the utilization of the One, why would he ever remove the One from his finger and lose such a power?​

As well, though the Sapphire Ring and the Adamant Ring were used strictly for the preservation of life and nature, it is my whole belief that the Ruby Ring was never used so. Though I do believe that Narya has been utilized before our eyes by Olorin. Think of his words on the bridge of Khazad-dûm:​

'You cannot pass. I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'​

The Secret Fire that is spoken of here hints at the Flame Imperishable, for it is said:​
Valaquenta said:
Therefore Ilúvatar gave to their vision Being, and set it amid the Void, and the Secret Fire was sent to burn at the heart of the World; and it was called Eä.
Click to expand...
However, this could also mean that Mithrandir was a merely a servant of Eru's power. However 'wielder of the flame of Anor' leaves little to the imagination, for Anor is the Sun. The action of this wielding I credit to Narya that rested upon his finger.​

Upon analysis of this information, I believe that the power of the Three were set with preservation in mind, but as it is with all power it can be wielded and molded in differant ways.​

-Isthir​
​
 
Firstly, I think you are speaking of the 19 and not the 18 (7 for dwarves + 9 for man + 3 for elves = 19 Elven Rings of Power). Secondly, there is much debate on whether Sauron took the Ruling Ring to Mordor. In the Silmarillion it states, This would imply that during his entire stay in Numenor, the Ruling Ring was off of his finger and safely kept in Barad-dur somewhere.

You also speak of all of the Rings being distributed to the Races of Middle-earth for domination by Sauron. This, too, is incorrect. The Elves made all of the Rings of Power in Eregion. 16 of these Rings were made with Sauron's direct input and were later recovered by Sauron (who later distributed them to Men and Dwarves) when his army stormed Eregion. He tortured Celebrimbor (maker of the Three) and Celebrimbor divulged the location of the 16 but would not reveal where the Three were kept. The Three were never seen by Sauron nor were they ever sullied by Sauron... but, since they were made with knowledge gleaned from Sauron, they were still subject to the One.
 
Grond posted:
This would imply that during his entire stay in Numenor, the Ruling Ring was off of his finger and safely kept in Barad-dur somewhere.
Click to expand...
From Letter 211: That would seem to be that.

Earlier accounts of the fall of Númenor did not mention the Ring as Tolkien had not then conceived of it and it is likely enough that Tolkien only considered the matter when Rhona Beare questioned him about it. But his comments make good sense.
 
And we arrive smack dab back at the beginning of the problem most scholars have with Letter 211... How does a disembodied spirit manage to carry a "physical" Ruling Ring back to Mordor? Answer is that it doesn't. I would imagine that Tolkien just didn't think out this response to Ms. Beare.

Also there is this... No mention of a Ring here. Just cunning and knowledge. And there is no mention of the matter at all in CT's version of The Silmarillion. My quote from it is pretty clear. He went back to Barad-dur and again took up the Ring. If he's wearing a Ring in Numenor... why would it be necessary for him to "again take it up"???
 
Grond said:
Firstly, I think you are speaking of the 19 and not the 18 (7 for dwarves + 9 for man + 3 for elves = 19 Elven Rings of Power).
Click to expand...
Indeed this is true Grond, forgive my math in that hour. Now let me comment on that wich you have said:

In Response to the above stated​

Yes, you are correct that the Sixteen were made by the Elves of Eregion, and later came to the possesion of Sauron. Now let me rephrase that which you have had a problem with. Sauron desired to rule over the Firstborn, which is seen easily in this passage from The Silmarillion:​
Now, as stated by Grond above, Sauron did assail Eregion because a certain action by the Elves that wore their rings. This action came to be when Sauron placed the One upon his finger, for he was precieved by the Elves and they withdrew the rings from their fingers. So, indeed you are correct Grond so far, but my statement had been that of the picture after the assualt upon Eregion, though I could have worded it differantly and for that I am truly sorry. However, I shall continue this little story of the paths of the Rings of Power, remaining after the attack on Eregion.​

Before the Distribution to the other Children​
So it was that Sauron obtained Sixteen of the Nineteen Rings of Power, though the Three, Narya and Nenya and Vilya, were bore away during the attack on the Elves of Eregion and hid. These Three could not be found by Sauron for reasons that will be discussed later in this writing. In this time Celebrimbor fell, Eregion was destroyed, the doors of Moria were shut, and Imladris (Rivendell) was founded by Elrond. Now with the majority of the Rings in his possesion they were delt to Men and Dwarves, though preverted before their giving.​

That of the Mortals' Nine​
Those who recieved a Ring of Power became mighty rulers of there time and amassed great wealt and fame. Though through the powers of their rings (which were never given from them to my knowledge) they had, seemingly, and undieing life that began to wear upon there hróar, causing them to slowly fade. Through the passes of time it came to pass that all Nine of these Men became thralls under Saurons control, though for some it took longer than others depending on their souls before recieving their Ring, and so were born the Nazgul.​

The Failure of the Dwarven Seven​
To seven Dwarfs Sauron gave over seven rings. Yet the Dwarves proved hard of will and not pulled into the treachory of their Rings, though each kept their Rings as the core of there treasure troaths(sp?), as well they were used only to amass wealth. So it was, that through the seeds of time Dragons either swallowed or laid upon each Dwarven Ring, save that of Thrór (which is a story for another time, for it has no relevance here).​

The Valiant Three​
The Three were not given by Sauron, nor perverted by him save that of the knowledge used to craft them, for the Elves bore them away during the attack on Eregion and trusted them into the hands of the Wise. The Wise never wielded the Three while Sauron was in possesion of the One. So it was that Elrond, Galadriel, and Mithrandir (though passing through some others' hands) came to be in possesion of an Elven Ring. It was for these Three that Sauron's lust grew, for he desired greatly now to be the Lord of all that laid within ME, so the Black Years began.​

Please do forgive anything that I have left out, for I am tired and am paraphrasing for the sake of the reader.​

-Isthir​
 
Isthir said:
So it was that Sauron obtained Sixteen of the Nineteen Rings of Power
Click to expand...
As you yourself point out, this is not the case because the Seven were not all obtained. But I see now that you meant he obtained them and gave them to the Dwarves, so nevermind.
Isthir; "The Power of the Mortals' Nine" said:
Those who recieved a Ring of Power became mighty rulers of there time and amassed great wealt and fame.
Click to expand...
I recall no passage where it would state that the Úlairi were especially powerful or rich, expecially not due to the Nine Rings.. The men to whom the Ring were given were, I believe, said to have been 'lords', but the phrasing is ambiguous. Anyway, only the Seven had the power to accumulate wealth, and that was only because Sauron was not able to break the will of the Dwarves.
Isthir; "The Failure of the Dwarven Seven" said:
So it was, that through the seeds of time Dragons either swallowed or laid upon each Dwarven Ring, save that of Thrór (which is a story for another time, for it has no relevance here).
Click to expand...
Sorry but I'm not a big fan of this chronicler style, especially when all that you are saying is known to everybody here.
And as I remember, Sauron did in fact obtain as many as three of the Seven, so your claim that Thrór's would have been the only one left is false.
Isthir; "The Valiant Three" said:
It was for these Three that Sauron's lust grew, for he desired greatly now to be the Lord of all that laid within ME, so the Black Years began.
Click to expand...
You are probably correct, but I don't think Sauron was too worried abot them as they were subject to the One; and because he was in possession of the One at the time, and knew that while he wore it the Three would not be used, he was pretty much home and clear.
 
Here are my two cents for the discussion:

the Ruling Ring was off of his finger and safely kept in Barad-dur somewhere
Click to expand...
This fits into my ways of thinking, that the One Ring had immense power, not only when it was on the finger of Sauron. I think that the word "possession" here means only "possession", wherever the thing, i.e. the Ring actually was. As long as it was guarded in Sauron's house, he could use his power, because from there it kind of affected him, strengened him.
Maybe its effect is related to proximity. So when Sauron was on Numenor, far away from the Ring, his power was lightly decreased, else he could have taken over the island sooner, who knows. And when he actually laid his hands on the metal, his power was strongest.
And even if he was only an evil spirit without physical body, he still had the Ring enough to him, to use its power.

As for the other Rings... Obviously they all gave the person that wore them great power. And some of that power turned into evil. (As for the Nine and the Seven.)
The Three, however, were given to the Elves right after being made. One to Galadriel, two to Gil-Galad, who gave one to Elrond on the instant, and one to Cirdan later, by which way it came to Gandalf. But that's not the point.

My point is, to bring a new twist in this discussion, that even the Three had the power to be evil. Though they were never used to that purpose, all of them could have been corrupted easily, had they not been hidden from Sauron and had they not been made without his awareness.
The Ring of Earth: Earth is the mother of life. Flowers and other plants grow on it, nourishing all that live. But it also has immens destructive power. It quakes, it dries out so everything living on it dies, because there is nothing left to eat.
The Ring of Water: Water is as essential to life as is earth, but it also comes from the sea in great storms and leaves the shores in ruin, it comes in floods, so everything drowns.
The Ring of Fire: Here, the main power may actually be destructive, but it also contains a good side. Fire burns, and thus purifies. Silver for example. It leaves the earth burnt, black and desolate, but from the ashes comes new life, stronger as before, as it had to fight its way through the ashen layers. It is a fire, that loves, that drives passion, that creates new things.

So like always, good and evil lie very close to each other, and without the one, the other cannot exist. (That is, why with the destruction of the One Ring, the Three also lost their power, having lost their evil counterpart.)
 
Hehe you posted exactly when I did Hirila!
Hirila said:
Maybe its effect is related to proximity
Click to expand...
Undoubtedly; but I believe it is more specifically a matter of physical contact. The Ring was in its entirety a physical entity in the Seen world, even though Sauron's power (which I assume would have been 'visible' in the Unseen; what a paradox) was not, and so I would conclude that to have access to the power stored in the Ring Sauron would have to have a physical from which which to wear it. But you have a point aobut the proximity question, because even when Sméagol didn't touch the Ring he desired it because its malice did not require physical interaction to begin.
Hirila said:
So when Sauron was on Numenor, far away from the Ring, his power was lightly decreased
Click to expand...
Sauron actually had the Ring with him when he was in Númenor.
Hirila said:
As for the other Rings... Obviously they all gave the person that wore them great power.
Click to expand...
Well I suppose so; but what I believe is that, like the One, the Three only enhanced the inherent powers and strength of the wielder. When Gandalf had Narya, he was able through his Ainuric essense to create living fire; Galadriel probably used Nenya to 'work' her Mirror and trap the light of Eärendil into water, and Elrond controlled the Bruinen. But all of these poeple were either Noldor, Peredhil or Maia, so they would all have considerably strong fëar to begin with, which the Rings would only enhance. (This is still only a theory )
Hirila said:
And some of that power turned into evil. (As for the Nine and the Seven.)
Click to expand...
How was the Seven turned to evil? They were used to amass wealth, but that ins't evil in itself.. I'mprobably missing something here..
Hirila said:
The Ring of Earth
Click to expand...
Um there actually is no Ring of Earth; Vilya is the Ring of Air, and Water and Fire are the other two.
Ah now this is very interesting! This I would agree with, not only because I agree with the whole Taoist idea of opposites but also because we witness the loss of power in the Three when the One is destroyed. Fantastic point Hirila!
 
Lantarion said:
As you yourself point out, this is not the case because the Seven were not all obtained.
Click to expand...

You are correct that all the Seven were not recovered, but the I made statement is made about when Eregion was assailed during the time that the Elves had in their possession all Nineteen of the Rings of Power, hence that it came to pass that Sauron came into possession of Sixteen of the Nineteen.​


Lantarion said:
I recall no passage where it would state that the Úlairi were especially powerful or rich, expecially not due to the Nine Rings..
Click to expand...
​


Then let me provide one for you:​


From The Silmarillion: Of the Rings of Power and the Third Age
Click to expand...
​
​


Lantarion said:
And as I remember, Sauron did in fact obtain as many as three of the Seven, so your claim that Thrór's would have been the only one left is false.
Click to expand...
​


This indeed is true, which is why I put the little disclaimer at the bottom of the post, for I was having trouble with my memory, but was on a mission to get the post done. For that I am sorry, and bravo.​


​


I never stated that Sauron was worried about them; I said that he lusted for them. He desired them for many reasons that I can only speculate at, but most of all he wished to ensnare the Firstborn.​



I wrote this not of my own style so that it may help it be understood,​

Isthir​
 
It is air? Not earth?
I am sorry... I seem not to be able to remember that. And when I think of Elrond I alwys think of earth... Don't ask me why.

And the seven... I guess I wasn't really clear about them. I meant, that they turned out to belong to the evil side in that their owners and their realms were all kind of destroyed. As were the rings if they didn't get lost or retrieved by Sauron. So I consider them to have turned out evil in the end.


Lantarion, your post leads me to another question, concerning the powers of the Rings, and I mean all Rings.
the Three only enhanced the inherent powers and strength of the wielder.
Click to expand...

If the Three really only enhanced already existing dispositions, then we would have to assume, that Gandlaf had been a "fireworker" all the time, that Galadriel always had loved water and that Elrond, was attached to the air. ( ) That the dwarves are by nature greedy and that men sought for power, wealth and glory.

But what if not?
Could it be, that the Rings were made to boost certain dispositions of the maker.
That way the One Ring would have been evil, because Sauron was evil. The Seven and the Nine would have led to an evil end, because the evil spirit of Sauron was involved in their making. And the Three are attached to three elements, because the elves are attached to the elements. And the Ringbearers then took a liking in "their" element after they had received "their" Ring.
(I don't want to discuss whether there should have been a fourth ring, a Ring of Earth, when there are already three of the four elements present. Remember? Fire, Water, Air, and Earth. That's for another thread.)
 
A very good question indeed, one to which there are many possible answers, yet I shall state my own reply as to which I feel most strongly towards. I feel that bot possibilties can co-exist. For it is true in all times that Men have always been power hungry, as well it is true that the Dwarves have always been greedy (speaking of the Race as a whole, not singular Dwarves). As for the mentions of Gandalf, Elrond, and Galadriel I shall revert to my past style of writing, for it provides me with the ability to put that which is in my mind down as something that one can, for the most part, understand.​

Of Gandalf​
To fully understand the Grey Wanderer we must go back to the beginings of his mission within ME. Olórin was his name to the Valar, and was called upon by Manwë while the Powers were deciding whom they would send to aid the Free Peoples of ME, even if just as Messangers. It is even further stated that Olórin can be related to Manwë and Varda (who is the Lady of the Stars and Light, and ever at Manwë's side). Further in depth let us look at the powers of these two, and the reason that Olórin was chosen to be amongst the Istari.​

¤ Manwë: The most dear to Eru who understands his purposes in the most light. As appointed, he was the Lord of Arda and ruler of all that it held; but in the Breath of Arda (the air) was his heart. This love was not only for the air and winds, but of the birds that thrived within this air as well.​
¤ Varda: The beautiful Lady of the Stars who still holds the light of Eru within her face. This Lady's power is of, and most joyous of, light. It should be told here as well that before the Music Varda rejected Melkor and was hated (and feared) by Morgoth more than any other Vala.​
¤ Choice of Olórin: It is said that the choice could possibly explained that Olórin was a lover of the Eldar still in ME. As well it is stated that during the choosing Olórin was called forth by Manwë, but stated that he was weary and feared Sauron. To this Manwë simply stated that it was all the more reason for him to go.​

Now if it was that Gandalf(Olórin) was originally a fire-wielder, it is said not (to my knowledge anyways), therefore it can only be speculated through his deeds, though all that were recorded were after receiving Narya. Therfore I leave the mystery of the effects of the Red Ring upon Mithrandir to the reader.​

As for that of Elrond and Galadriel I must ask the reader's pardon, for I indeed need to do more research into them before I can compose a true writing and explaination of them. Rest assured though, those writings shall come.​

-Isthir​
 
So basically, you don't know either. That's cool, but it would be itneresting to hear people's, including your, speculations. When you say you "Leave it to the reader", do you exclude yourself?
By explanation do you mean your theory as to the Rings Vilya and Nenya? That would be nice to hear; but if you are thikning of giving us a synopsis of the lives of these people, I think that is a little unnecessary. Everything that is connected should of course be presented, but we don't need all that background info because we are already aware of it.

And now that you mention it, I would say that Gandalf was not a fire-wilder, or indeed the wielder of any real destructive force by nature; and this, I believe, applies to all Maiar. The more powerful ones might be able to take the form of sheer destruction, like the Valaraukar, but the Istari were not powerful Maiar, and so I would deduce that it was for the most part due to Narya that gandalf had such a command over fire.
Hirila your point about the Rings enhancing those parts of the wielder which are already there is interesting, I would agree. But I would also say that if anybody of lesser stature than the Wise or a Maia put on one of the Three, they would not be able to control it properly; or perhaps it would not enhance the inherent strengths in that person enough? What a difficult subject!

Oh and Isthir thank you for that quote, I had forgotten it.
 
originally posted by Lanty,
Sauron actually had the Ring with him when he was in Númenor.
Click to expand...
I am assuming the smiley face is added due to the fact that there are conflicting accounts (by the author) of whether Sauron was possessed of the Ruling Ring while he was on his Numenorean vacation.

Isthir... there was also rumour and legend among the Dwarves that the Ring of Durin was never sullied by Sauron and was given to him directly by Celebrimbor. (Of course it would still be subject to the One!) And, when Sauron attacked Eregion, Durin closed the gates of Moria and the Dwarves were protected from that attack. Of course, I am equally convinced that regardless of it origin, Sauron did ultimately possess Durin's Ring when Moria was finally taken.

I am also equally convinced that Gandalf had no inherent fire abilities and that his "expertise" with fire, fireworks and the like, were direct "powers" from the Ring he wore. While their have been several debates on the exact nature of the Flame of Anor, I have always felt that the Ring Narya was the "Flame of Anor". And before everyone goes off on how the Three were Rings of Preservation let us not forget that fire does destroy but it also purifies and renews... so there!!
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Share this page

Similar threads

B
What kept 🧙Gandalf and others from using their full power in ⚔️battle?
Replies
4
Views
6K
Copia
Fanfic Concerning the Black Númenorians
2
Replies
28
Views
9K
LittleAlex
T
🧝Galadriel article - Tolkiengateway is not trustworthy
Replies
13
Views
8K
david_wendelken
Fanfic 🧝Elrond and the 🧙Blue Wizards
Replies
7
Views
5K
Kiredor
Tolkien's "Special" Words (continued, d thru z)
2
Replies
27
Views
12K
Deimos
Menu
Log in
Register
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…