Another thread about the Ring

[Lhunithiliel]

Reading through an old thread I came accross a quote provided from the UT (I hope I'm not mistaken ) that goes like this:

For Isildur would not surrender it to Elrond and Círdan who stood by. They counselled him to cast it into the fire of Orodruin nigh at hand, in which it had been forged, so that it should perish, and the power of Sauron be for ever diminished, and he should remain only as a shadow of malice in the wilderness.

The reason why I bring forward this quote is that the underlined and in bold letters word "diminished", triggered a thought...

... Isn't it a most often shared opinion that destroying the Ring meant the irrevocable destruction of Sauron?
But then 'diminished' somehow does not fit. To have his powers "diminished" to me doesn't sound like them/him, resp., being "destroyed" by destroying the Ring ...

What do you think of it?

Because ... if it were all about 'diminishing' the Enemy's powers only, then, from this p.o.v. all of a sudden the whole heroic 'halo' of the deeds of the Fellowship is really 'diminished' ... don't you think?
If the destruction of the Ring (in any moment) would lead to only diminishing the Enemy's powers but never actually to destroying it, then ... what really was the Ring's purpose? Was it not just a literary 'means' - an 'axis' for the whole story of the LotR? And only this!
Though, of course, such an interpretation might "strip" off the 'mystical' air around this most popular object.

Opinions?

 

[Gothmog]

Why go to UT to look for such a quote.

'Concerning this thing, my lords, you now all know enough for the understanding of our plight, and of Sauron's. If he regains it, your valour is vain, and his victory will be swift and complete: so complete that none can foresee the end of it while this world lasts. If it is destroyed, then he will fall; and his fall will be so low that none can foresee his arising ever again. For he will lose the best part of the strength that was native to him in his beginning, and all that was made or begun with that power will crumble, and he will be maimed for ever, becoming a mere spirit of malice that gnaws itself in the shadows, but cannot again grow or take shape. And so a great evil of this world will be removed.

from RotK: The Last Debate

So it is clear from this that Sauron as an entity would not be destroyed but that he would become so weak that he would no longer be able to cause trouble. The fact that the Power of Sauron would indeed be destroyed is what matters.

I do not feel that the "whole heroic 'halo' of the deeds of the Fellowship is really 'diminished' ". They were not on a quest to kill someone. Their quest was the destruction of "Evil Power". Through great hardships and trials (and finally with some unnamed help) this destruction was achieved and Sauron was Diminished to the point that he had less power than that of a baby. A baby after all has within itself the power to grow and become a man, Sauron after the destruction of the Ring did not.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Why go to UT to look for such a quote.

Dunno .. I just love this book!

Now the quote you have provided and probably the whole LotR brings to a conclusion which to a great extent would support the 'final state of affairs' - the Ring is destroyed >> Sauron -too >> the Power of Evil - gone.
As you said:

So it is clear from this that Sauron as an entity would not be destroyed but that he would become so weak that he would no longer be able to cause trouble. The fact that the Power of Sauron would indeed be destroyed is what matters.

Yet ... there we have ('on the other hand' ?) the "New Shadow", as a sequel to the LotR.
Chr.T. reminds of :

In a letter of 13 May 1964 (Letters no.256) he wrote:
I did begin a story placed about 100 years after the Downfall [of
Sauron], but it proved both sinister and depressing. Since we are
dealing with Men it is inevitable that we should be concerned with
the most regrettable feature of their nature: their quick satiety
with good. So that the people of Gondor in times of peace, justice
and prosperity, would become discontented and restless - while the
dynasts descended from Aragorn would become just kings and
governors - like Denethor or worse. I found that even so early there
was an outcrop of revolutionary plots, about a centre of secret
Satanistic religion; while Gondorian boys were playing at being
Orcs and going round doing damage. I could have written a 'thriller'
about the plot and its discovery and overthrow - but it would be
just that. Not worth doing.

And a bit later on, in the introduction to this unfinished writing, we read:

But in 1972, fifteen months before his death, he
wrote to his friend Douglas Carter (Letters no.338):
I have written nothing beyond the first few years of the Fourth Age.
(Except the beginning of a tale supposed to refer to the end of
the reign of Eldarion about 100 years after the death of Aragorn.
Then I of course discovered that the King's Peace would contain
no tales worth recounting; and his wars would have little interest
after the overthrow of Sauron; but that almost certainly a restless-
ness would appear about then, owing to the (it seems) inevitable
boredom of Men with the good: there would be secret societies
practising dark cults, and 'orc-cults' among adolescents.)

Now... putting the finished LotR-story on one side but taking into consideration the above, was Sauron's powers - the Power of Evil - destroyed to such a state that it was unable to ever come into force again?

In other words, wasn't this 'evil' already too strongly "embedded" into Men's nature as to consider its force fully disabled?

I do not feel that the "whole heroic 'halo' of the deeds of the Fellowship is really 'diminished' ". They were not on a quest to kill someone. Their quest was the destruction of "Evil Power". Through great hardships and trials (and finally with some unnamed help) this destruction was achieved and Sauron was Diminished to the point that he had less power than that of a baby. A baby after all has within itself the power to grow and become a man, Sauron after the destruction of the Ring did not.

I very much hope my speculative thought did not sound 'cynical"! Truly! It's just a provokative p.o.v. I think sometimes to look at an issue from the 'opposite corner' helps for better understanding of the real truth.

 

[Gothmog]

Now... putting the finished LotR-story on one side but taking into consideration the above, was Sauron's powers - the Power of Evil - destroyed to such a state that it was unable to ever come into force again?

In other words, wasn't this 'evil' already too strongly "embedded" into Men's nature as to consider its force fully disabled?

Sauron's "Evil Power" was indeed destroyed and could not again return to trouble the world.

Don't forget, Sauron was not the "Primary" Source of Evil! Putting aside for now the oft asked question of "Evil originating with Eru", Sauron was only a servant of Morgoth. It is true that "this 'evil' already too strongly "embedded" into Men's nature as to consider its force fully disabled" however, it was not Sauron's evil but that of Morgoth who's malice was spread throughout the whole of Arda and could not be erradicated.

So the quest to destroy the power of Sauron achieved its aim but it could go no further. Even Eru himself could not remove the Taint of Melkor from Arda without totaly destroying Arda at the same time. What chance then that lesser beings could do any more than the removal the the "Last Physical Incarnation of Evil" namely Sauron. Evil Men would arise it is true, but they would be only men. A powerful incarnation of Evil such as Sauron was would not.

I very much hope my speculative thought did not sound 'cynical"! Truly! It's just a provokative p.o.v. I think sometimes to look at an issue from the 'opposite corner' helps for better understanding of the real truth.

I did not find it 'cynical' I did find it provokative and tried to answer it to the best of my ability. Hopefully others will come along and to add their views to this thread.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

Sauron's "Evil Power" was indeed destroyed and could not again return to trouble the world.

Don't forget, Sauron was not the "Primary" Source of Evil! Putting aside for now the oft asked question of "Evil originating with Eru", Sauron was only a servant of Morgoth. It is true that "this 'evil' already too strongly "embedded" into Men's nature as to consider its force fully disabled" however, it was not Sauron's evil but that of Morgoth who's malice was spread throughout the whole of Arda and could not be erradicated.

Right ...
I do agree that Sauron and his powers were only one of the "incarnations", or call it "demosntrations" of Evil. And that Evil, IMHO, would go beyond Eru, so it's not that "simple" to even look for its origins with the Allmighty... rather than perhaps in the all-over order of things, the "balance" kept between 'good' and evil' as an universal order.
If I remember well, Tolkien commented a lot in his letters on the issue and I'll have to find again those comments. They say a lot about his views.

So the quest to destroy the power of Sauron achieved its aim but it could go no further. Even Eru himself could not remove the Taint of Melkor from Arda without totaly destroying Arda at the same time. What chance then that lesser beings could do any more than the removal the the "Last Physical Incarnation of Evil" namely Sauron. Evil Men would arise it is true, but they would be only men. A powerful incarnation of Evil such as Sauron was would not.

Would then Man become the next 'powerful incarnation' of Evil?

I did not find it 'cynical' I did find it provokative and tried to answer it to the best of my ability. Hopefully others will come along and to add their views to this thread.

Ah! Good!
And I, too, hope so!

 

[Gothmog]

I do agree that Sauron and his powers were only one of the "incarnations", or call it "demosntrations" of Evil. And that Evil, IMHO, would go beyond Eru, so it's not that "simple" to even look for its origins with the Allmighty... rather than perhaps in the all-over order of things, the "balance" kept between 'good' and evil' as an universal order.

For the purpose of the question we are at this time addressing, it is not needed to go further than Melkor. Regardless of where Evil originated in the Universe, So far as Arda is concerned, Melkor brought it to Arda and he spread it out through the fabric of the world so that all who were nourished by the World were tainted by the Evil.

However, the question of the "Ultimate origin of Evil" within Tolkien's universe would be a very interesting question for another thread.

If I remember well, Tolkien commented a lot in his letters on the issue and I'll have to find again those comments. They say a lot about his views.

I would be very interested in these quotes.

Would then Man become the next 'powerful incarnation' of Evil?

No. After the Fall of Sauron there would not be "Evil Incarnated" though there would be some very evil men.

 

[Lhunithiliel]

For the purpose of the question we are at this time addressing, it is not needed to go further than Melkor. Regardless of where Evil originated in the Universe, So far as Arda is concerned, Melkor brought it to Arda and he spread it out through the fabric of the world so that all who were nourished by the World were tainted by the Evil.

I did look up at the title I myself gave to this thread and it reads: "Another thread about the Ring".
Now, I've strayed away, true, but if to bring back the main theme and talk about the Ring and its powers, how to 'escape' from the "peril" of the other "eternal" question : "The Ring - sentient or not?" ?

However, the question of the "Ultimate origin of Evil" within Tolkien's universe would be a very interesting question for another thread. .

Why don't you start it?

After the Fall of Sauron there would not be "Evil Incarnated" though there would be some very evil men.

Optimistic view?
Well, one thing is for sure (?) - after the Elves and the "Gods" from Aman 'fade away' , most probably there won't be an object like the Ring, that would hold such a destructive power and whatever menace over Men might come, it won't be 'divine' but simply a creation of Men themselves.

 

[Gothmog]

Why don't you start it?

Ok give me a couple of days.

Optimistic view? No, I don't think so. The Evil of Men is bad enough.

and whatever menace over Men might come, it won't be 'divine' but simply a creation of Men themselves.

This is why I said that the would not be another "Incarnation of Evil"

 

[Ithrynluin]

Indeed, Sauron could never again take shape, or tamper with the physical world, after the destruction of the One.

The following quotes may shed some light:

The History of Middle-earth X: Morgoth's Ring; Myths Transformed
Moreover, the final eradication of Sauron (as a power directing evil) was achievable by the destruction of the Ring. No such eradication of Morgoth was possible, since this required the complete disintegration of the 'matter' of Arda. Sauron's power was not (for example) in gold as such, but in a particular form or shape made of a particular portion of total gold. Morgoth's power was disseminated throughout Gold, if nowhere absolute (for he did not create Gold) it was nowhere absent.

The dark spirit of Melkor's 'remainder' might be expected, therefore, eventually and after long ages to increase again, even (as some held) to draw back into itself some of its formerly dissipated power. It would do this (even if Sauron could not) because of its relative greatness.

Thus Sauron was said to have fallen below the point of ever recovering, though he had previously recovered. What is probably meant is that a 'wicked' spirit becomes fixed in a certain desire or ambition, and if it cannot repent then this desire becomes virtually its whole being. But the desire may be wholly beyond the weakness it has fallen to, and it will then be unable to withdraw its attention from the unobtainable desire, even to attend to itself. It will then remain for ever in impotent desire or memory of desire.

Optimistic view? No, I don't think so. The Evil of Men is bad enough.

One look at the world and the atrocities humanity is capable of, is enough to prove that.