Anyone else troubled by the 🧙Blue Wizards?

Several things about the Blue Wizards or Ithryn Luin:

• In Letter 211 to Rhona Beare 14 October 1958, Tolkien wrote:

  I really do not know anything clearly about the other two [wizards] = since they do not concern the history of the N.W. [I.e., the northwest of Middle-earth] I think they went as emissaries to distant regions, East and South, far out of Númenórean range: missionaries to ‘enemy-occupied’ lands, as it were. What success they had I do not know; but I fear they failed as Saruman did, thought doubtless in different ways; and I suspect they were founders or beginners of secret cults and ‘magic’ traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.

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  Note that “South” being “out of Númenórean range” might mean out the range of the Faithful Númenóreans: the King’s Men who later became the Black Númenóreans controlled the coastlands south of Umbar during the Second Age, and they had settlements in those places; Queen Berúthiel is described as a Black Númenórean princess from an old Númenórean settlement south of Umbar.
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• From the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales, cited from “a note written in 1967”:

  Gandalf disclaimed ever visiting ‘the East’, but actually he appears to have confined his journeys … to the western lands, inhabited by … peoples in general hostile to Sauron. …. It seems unlikely that he ever journeyed … in the Harad…

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  It is also in this essay said that

  Curumo … was chose by Aule, and Alatar … was sent by Oromë. … Manwë commanded Olórin (illegible words follow that seem to contain the word ‘third’). [That is an editorial comment in the text.]… Curumo [Saruman] took Aiwendil [Radagast] because Yavanna begged him, and … Alatar took Pallando as a friend.

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  The essay says, too, that

  Of the Blue [Wizards] little was known in the West, and they had no names save Ithryn Luin ‘the Blue Wizards’; for they passed into the East with Curunír, but they never returned, and whether they remained in the East, pursuing there the purposes for which they were sent; or perished; or as some hold were ensnared by Sauron and became his servants, is not now known.

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  A footnote to this passage then cites the same passage cited in the first bullet from Letter 211.
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• Finally, in Peoples of Middle-earth, “Last Writings”, “The Five Wizards”, Tolkien’s notes say these things:

  The other two [wizards, i.e., the Blue Wizards] are only known to (have) exist(ed) [sic] by Saruman, Gandalf, and Radagast, and Saruman in his wrath mentioning five was letting out a piece of private information.

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  But the description of the Ithryn Luin here is different. The “war in Eriador” is the war Sauron waged against the Elves for control of the Rings of Power, II 1693-1700, in which the Númenórean force under Tar-Minastir came to the aid of Gil-galad. The elisions (the three dots “…” that mean something has been left out of the quote) and material in square brackets like this “[]” are in the printed text, meaning that the editor, Christopher Tolkien, has elided or added material, and not me (this time); and “The ‘other two’” means The other two Wizards: that is, the Blue Wizards.

  The ‘other two’ came much earlier, at the same time probably as Glorfindel, when matters became very dangerous in the Second Age. Glorfindel was sent to aid Elrond and was … pre-eminent in the war in Eriador. But the other two Istari were sent for a different purpose. Morinehtar and Rómestámo. Darkness-slayer and East-helper. Their task was to circumvent Sauron: to bring help to the few tribes of Men that had rebelled from Melkor-worship, to stir up rebellion … and after his first fall to search out his hiding (in which they failed) and to cause [?dissention and disarray] among the dark East … They must have had very great influence on the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East … who would both in the Second Age and Third Age otherwise have … outnumbered the West.

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These writings are a bit confusing and somewhat at odds with one another. In the first place, the essay “The Istari” in Unfinished Tales says that the Wizards

first appeared in Middle-earth about the year 1000 of the Third Age. … Of this Order the number is unknown; but of those that came to the North of Middle-earth, … the chiefs were five. The first to come was … clad in white. … Others there were also: two clad in sea-blue, and one in earthen brown; and last came one … grey-haired and grey-clad…

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This is confirmed in “Appendix B” of Return of the King in the section on the Third Age:

When maybe a thousand years had passed, … the Istari or Wizards appeared in Middle-earth.

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So the idea that the two Blue Wizards came in the Second Age with Glorfindel seems to be trumped. It is in this same passage that alternative names for the two Blue Wizards are offered. Finally, the conclusion reached on the success of their mission is radically different: that they “had very great influence on the Second Age and Third Age in weakening and disarraying the forces of the East,” as opposed to the idea that “they failed as Saruman did, thought doubtless in different ways; and ... they were founders or beginners of secret cults and ‘magic’ traditions that outlasted the fall of Sauron.” Perhaps both of these assessments might be accurate: they disrupted Sauron’s plans in the East (and perhaps in the South as well), but they ultimately failed in that they fell away from their appointed purpose, as did Saruman and Radagast.

Just to recap the various names and the Valar to whom they were attached:There is also a note in the essay “The Istari” that says that says “In an earlier version … it is said that Olórin was ‘counsellor of Irmo’”.

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valaroma said:

That pointed hat worn by the istari is exactly similar to the ones worn by ancient nomadic conquerors in central asia who called themselves "saka". Historians called them "Scythians" and they were the masters of the Caucasus region around 700 b.c. They spoke a proto indo european dialect which is the precursor to most european languages. Some historians consider these people as "Aryans" or the ancestor of modern europeans.

This pointed hat was much later borrowed by the mongols whom by the 12th century conquers central asia and part of europe. Genghiz Khan often wear this hat when he go into battle.

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Pointed metal hats made of gold were used by ancient Europeans about 3,000 years ago, apparently as a permanent means of predicting astronomical events that require some rather sophisticated observations over long periods and complex calculations to accurately predict them. Several of them have been found across northern Europe. You can find interesting articles about them here and here.

The most famous example of the pointed hat, however, is the modern “dunce cap,” named for the Medieval scholastic group founded by John Duns Scotus, one of the most important thinkers of the Middle Ages. Unfortunately for Duns Scotus’ reputation, he was associated with the specious argument about “how many angels can dance of the head of a pin,” hence our association of the once-honorable “Duns cap” with the modern “dunce cap,” indicating academic shortcoming rather than excellence. William of Occam was one of his students, however: Occam’s Razor is one of the logical arguments that has come to be considered an underpinning of modern science, logic, and engineering.

Alcuin said:

the specious argument about “how many angels can dance of the head of a pin,” .

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Unfortunately this is generally misreported by social historians who generally do not understand the significance of the didactic method employed. Far from being specious, it was an exercise in strict logic using scriptural citations and other evidence to build a case. Conducting the argument in this way required very high levels of logical methodology to address an issue the exact nature of which was secondary to the educative purpose of the exercise.

Wise Up!

Anyone else troubled by the Blue Wizards?

They can be quite nasty if they get to your lettuces, the answer is to lay a good dressing of Blue Wizard Powder between the drills shortly after germination. Repeat once the first leaf pair has shown.

I always assumed they went into the East (anywhere in the East) and remained there, and never returned, either because they were killed or just never came back. But why wouldn't they return? Corruption? They were still needed to do whatever they were doing?

Shireman D said:

Unfortunately this is generally misreported by social historians who generally do not understand the significance of the didactic method employed. Far from being specious, it was an exercise in strict logic using scriptural citations and other evidence to build a case. Conducting the argument in this way required very high levels of logical methodology to address an issue the exact nature of which was secondary to the educative purpose of the exercise.

Wise Up!

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I did not disparage the erudition of Duns Scotus, and I praised his student, William of Occam. I correctly stated that this debating exercise of the Aristotelian Scholastics earned him derision, so that his pointed hat has become the modern “dunce cap.” Francis Bacon skinned the cat of Scholasticism, and it has never yet recovered, save in law courts and Deconstructionism.

Alcuin said:

I did not disparage the erudition of Duns Scotus.

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Are you saying that 'specious' is a term of approbation? Surely not?

Hm. You wouldn’t be attempting to confuse my opinion of the man, John Duns Scotus, with my opinion of the “exercise” topic commonly referred to as “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” now would you? It would be pettifoggery to purposefully defend a worthless argument – “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” – by intentionally confusing it with a blanket condemnation of the leading light of Scholasticism.

Twice before I have declined to condemn Scotus: this makes three. I have twice before agreed with the general condemnation of the “exercise” topic: it was specious, and it earned the Scholastics derision; this is my third time to concur with that assessment.

You are free to defend the exercise. You are also free to defend the argument for its own sake. You may succeed in the former. I think you will fail at the latter, as have many strong debaters before you, and for their efforts, earned ridicule – and derision.

You are not free to deliberately confuse my approbation of the “exercise” with my opinion of Dun Scotus.

Alcuin said:

Hm. You wouldn’t be attempting to confuse my opinion of the man, John Duns Scotus, with my opinion of the “exercise” topic commonly referred to as “How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?” now would you? .

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No, I would not.

Therefore the argument of the rest of your post falls.

Please feel free to put me in my place any time you like but I shall not respond to this thread any further.

Maybe they took the short cut back to valinor and simply killed themselves.

Mormegil said:

There's a thread around here somewhere in which I pointed out a theory that Saruman might have killed or destroyed the Blue Wizards before he returned to the west of Middle-Earth.

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A very intriguing thought! Though this would have to be after they began certain magical cults as is stated in Unfinished Tales.

OfRhosgobel said:

A very intriguing thought! Though this would have to be after they began certain magical cults as is stated in Unfinished Tales.

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Though, why kill them? Saruman had not turned to evil so soon. It was not until very late in the Age when he had dared to use the Palantir that he was ensnared by Saurons will.

FarahSlax said:

I mean, I can't sleep nights because I don't know what happened to them. They passed into the East, and Tolkien said he suspected they founded some evil cults or something. Cmon, I have to know more!!!

What's wrong with them? Why did they just go traipsing off like that?
Sheesh, Istari are supposed to be demigods. How come they're so frigging weak?

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Look, much can be said on this topic, Tolkien left it a vague one. So their is bound to be much speculation. What IS said is that the Blue Wizards were in their beginning Maiar of Orome. Now we know that Orome was a far traveler of the Valar. He was always journeying back to middle-earth and tangling with Melkor's minions. Orome was perhaps the bravest and most worldy of the Valar. Now we can assume that his Maiar had these same traits. This being said; the blue wizards were probably great warriors, and had a great desire to travel to far flung places, like Orome. This probably brought them to the farthest east, and maybe south, of Middle-Earth. What they did their is impossible to know since those events went unreported in the west.

My personal opinion: They traveled as far as they could go and settled in those unknown lands. Their they resisted Sauron. Their they told the people of the Burnt Lands and the Dark Lands to reject the emissaries of the Dark Lord. Their they made their dwellings and started "Cults of Magic" as is stated in Unfinished Tales. And so in their way, remained true to their cause.

My theory generally goes along with the letter Tolkien wrote regarding them: that they were sent into the East to cause discord and chaos among the sworn Armies of Mordor. However it was probably a stealth mission in which they split up and infiltrated different Eastern tribes, disguised as evil men of great power.

However, given that they were sent by Oromë, I believe the latter of the two, Pallando, may have faltered in his mission. My theory is that this Wizard became too bloodthirsty and came to love war and battle to the point of unhealthiness. At which point, similar to the Saruman of Many Colors plotline, Pallando became Pallando the Purple, as his blue robes would be much blood-stained in his lust for blood. Thus the two original Blue Wizards had a power struggle similar to Gandalf usurping Sara man's Whitehood after he had fallen into evil.

But the general outcome is the same. Pallando the Purple led his tribe to great victories against other Easterlings and Alatar the Blue did likewise. Thus the eastern armies present at the War of the Ring were greatly reduced in numbers and power, and the mission of the Blue Wizards was for all intents and purposes complete. It was probably the best they could hope to do dwelling amongst such a savage and war-loving folk.

*Edited to add that: given the Tolkien letter where he says that Gandalf was the only Istari to succeed in his mission, maybe it went something more like this: as Pallando began to take more and more joy in slaughter and war, he became Pallando the Red. Then seeing as Pallando had erred in his mission, Alatar challenged him with the might of his own infiltrated tribe. In the ensuing battle Alatar was slain and his Rod broken, by Pallando, at which point his spirit was "absorbed" so to speak by Pallando, seeing as they came from the same order of Blue Wizards, at which point he became Pallando the Purple and now wholly evil.

I don't know if this has been corrected, but Saruman was a servant of Aulë, and not Manwë, as someone said.


I obviously take Middle-earth too seriously!

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There's a thread around here somewhere in which I pointed out a theory that Saruman might have killed or destroyed the Blue Wizards before he returned to the west of Middle-Earth.
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Saruman could not have killed or destroyed the Blue Wizards, and here is why.
We all know from the books Saruman's character and desire for power, and how when he rejected Gandalf (the White) at Isengard after being asked to give Gandalf his staff as a pledge of good faith, he accused Gandalf of a plot to collect all the "rods of the five wizards". We know by this coment all 5 wizard staffs still existed to Saruman's knowledge at this time.

We can also surely infer by this comment had Saruman succeeded in destroying the Blues, he most assuredly WOULD have taken care to keep their rods for himself- and not only would have whipped them out in his first battle with Gandalf the Grey where Gandalf was imprisoned- but also definitely would have fallen back on these after Gandalf the White shattered his original staff.

Also Gandalf the White would most surely have known such a murder had happened- such a secret could not have been concealed from him-- and he would have been well aware Saruman would have kept the staffs. He would have been sure to take these extras from Saruman at the moment he broke Sarumans staff. And in their chat earlier we can safely assume when Saruman had mentioned Gandalf having the five rods, Gandalf would have retorted back, "You accuse me of stealing... when you already have three."

The only remaining scenario where all still fits together is Saruman secretly destroying the Blues without Gandalf's knowledge then losing their staffs, yet still being sure they both still exist. Aside from the unlikeliness of Gandalf never finding out, it would be highly unlikely for such an accident to happen once to a careful planner such as Saruman... I believe twice, practically nil.