How do you kill a spirit that existed before the creation of Arda?
True, I'll give you that one. But, yeah, we don't know anything about the spirits of Balrogs' or Saruman's spirits. If you want to argue that, Men don't truly die either. Elves have shown the capacity to come back.Even after the destruction of the One Ring Sauron was not completely destroyed. The loss of such a great part of his native power meant that he could never again take shape and would remain only a shadow. However, we don't know what percentage of their power the Balrogs lost in the destruction of their bodies.
Yes. I think the spirits of the Maia most likely go back to their Vala/Valie, and Eru or their Vala decides whether to grant them life in bodily form once more or not. That is always how I have imagined the life of Maiar.The text suggests Saruman's spirit is wafted away on the wind. It doesn't say anything about it afterwards. Nor about any slain Balrog.
True, I'll give you that one. But, yeah, we don't know anything about the spirits of Balrogs' or Saruman's spirits. If you want to argue that, Men don't truly die either. Elves have shown the capacity to come back.
I agree with everything here. Thanks for making a resource or reliable accuracy.Ok, Men die and leave the circles of the world and not even the Valar know what happens to them. That is in the hands of Eru. Elves do not die but their bodies can be slain and then they are gathered in Mandos if they accept the call or they wander Middle-earth as spirits if they don't. Those Elves that go to Mandos get Re-bodied after a period of reflection. Men and Elves do not have the ability to create their own bodies. That is something only Ainur who have entered into Arda can do. When they chose to "Walk Unclad" then the Valar or the Maiar are invisible to Elves and Men and can re-create their bodies at will. However, when a Valar or Maiar spend a long time in a body they become somewhat trapped in that body and its destruction causes a loss of native power. The Maia who this happens to is not destroyed but is significantly weakened. How much each is weakened is what we do not know and how many would be able to create a less powerful body (such as a stronger, long-lived Orc) is also something we do not know.
Saruman's spirit was blown away by a wind from the west.
Ainur do not die. They can be, and are, weakened in certain circumstances even to the point of not being able to take form again. However we are not told how much native power needs to be lost for this to be the case.
You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you. You could see them, and they could see you.
It would certainly be a plausible thing for Tolkien to speak about and put in his books given that he was a practicing and very traditional Catholic. Because of that, he would have believed in the spiritual world of angels, saints, and God. He would have believed that there was an entire spiritual aspect to the world, and that though things were unseen, they still existed.The texts do sometimes give the impression of two separate "worlds" as in Gandalf's words to Frodo at Rivendell:
But my reading, anyway, is that the "unseen" (by mortals) world and the "seen" world are the same world; it's just that certain beings are aware of the totality. This has been discussed before; here's one example:
But there are others.
Good parallel to describe it, I would imagine this is much the same. Since obviously, it isn't like a different world, it is just unseen aspects (still existing) in our world.Yes. A parallel would be, say, how we see flowers, in contrast with how bees see them.
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Thanks. I will have to check this out.Here's another thread touching on the subject:
It is not really as simple as "Balrog is killed = Balrog finished". With any Maia the body is not the same as with Elves or Men, and it is possible for a Maia to create or "un-create" (for want of a better term) a body at will. The longer that they wear a body the more attached they become to it. When their body is killed by external force then the is some damage done to the Maia, the longer the body is worn the more damage it's destruction causes. What is not certain is how much damage was done when the Balrogs we know about were killed and therefore we also do not know about the possibility of them taking physical form again.Perhaps, when Balrog are slain (or any maia), they just fully enter unseen world, but can not exit and exist in the real world, anymore.
Maybe, unseen world have 2 like dimensions - good and evil. WE have been told that ring wraiths are in the unseen world, but somehow in their own evil dimension... can't remember the exact name now.
(although, I do believe, since ringwraiths are just men, after the destruction of the ring, their spirit goes where everybody else from people go, and they did not remain in the unseen world).
Just my speculations.
This shows one level of difference while if taken further you get to the point that the flowers are visible to one group and completely invisible to another group.Yes. A parallel would be, say, how we see flowers, in contrast with how bees see them.
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Quite true, and partly explains their use of cloaks -- though there are also other reasons for them.This shows one level of difference while if taken further you get to the point that the flowers are visible to one group and completely invisible to another group.
That may be.It is not really as simple as "Balrog is killed = Balrog finished". With any Maia the body is not the same as with Elves or Men, and it is possible for a Maia to create or "un-create" (for want of a better term) a body at will. The longer that they wear a body the more attached they become to it. When their body is killed by external force then the is some damage done to the Maia, the longer the body is worn the more damage it's destruction causes. What is not certain is how much damage was done when the Balrogs we know about were killed and therefore we also do not know about the possibility of them taking physical form again.
You are not completely off track. All Valar and Maiar can create a body and shift shape. It is not a question of having the option to create a permanent body or a temporary body. The longer that The Vala or Maia inhabited a body the harder it became to change and the more damage if it was destroyed. Valar and Maiar are not bound by the body and cannot Die, if they are weakened enough they can no longer create a body and are left as a spirit unable to affect the material world.That may be.
I am also thinking of this possibility:
Maia's maybe have like these options.
1) To have a definitive body that they will permanently keep, and can not change (Balrogs, maybe Melian)
pros: They are among strongest being on Middle Earth
cons: If you die - you die
2) To have much weaker bodies, but can shapeshift (like Sauron)
pros: Ability to reincarnate in new body several times
cons: Not so strong
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But then again,. it might be that shapeshifting ability of Sauron is just something that he is naturally given, and that Balrogs don't have that gift.
Awesome, and thanks.Tolkien addresses the process in at least one letter. I'll try to find it later.
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