Aren't the ⛏️Dwarves the Oldest?

Inderjit S · Jan 19, 2004

Of course, there's still Cirdan at the Grey Havens & if he's not in the first 144 Elves who awoke, he was there soon after & went on the Great Journey of the Eldar into The West.

I don't think he is one of the original Elves, but we cannot know for sure. He was born when they set out, and most probably when Oromë came to the Elves, since he was a important chieftain of the Teleri. (He was one of the foremost Elves in seeking out the secrets of sailing etc., he was one of the main developers of this craft on the Teleri's sojourn on the Sea of Rhûn. He was also related to Elwe and Olwë, and since Elwe and Olwë seem to have 'remoter kin' (i.e. second or third cousins, such as maybe Eöl and Círdan and Voronwë’s mother) I can hypothesise that they were third or fourth generation Elves. We are never told if Finwë had any kin, since none are mentioned, though Ingwë had at least one sister.

Even some whole inventions like the remarkable Ents, oldest of all living rational creatures

'Letter 131; Letters of Tolkien'

Ents the most ancient people surviving in the Third Age

'Appendix F'

When the children awake, then the thought of Yavanna should awake too, and it will summon spirits from afar and they will go among the kelvar and olvar

'Of Ents and Eagles' HoME 11

There are or were no Ents in the older stories – because the Ents in fact only presented themselves to my sight, without premeditation or any previous conscious knowledge, when I came to Chapter IV of Book Three. But since Treebeard shows knowledge of the drowned land of Beleriand (west of the Mountains of Lune) in which the main action of the war against Morgoth took place, they will have to come in. But as the War in Beleriand was at the time of the hobbits' meeting some 7,000 years ago, no doubt they were not quite the same: less wise, less strong, shyer and moreuncommunicable (their own language simpler, but their knowledge of other tongues very small).

No one knew whence they (Ents) came or first appeared. The High Elves said that the Valar did not mention them in the 'Music'. But some (Galadriel) were [of the] opinion that when Yavanna discovered the mercy of Eru to Aulë in the matter of the Dwarves, she besought Eru (through Manwë) asking him to give life to things made of living things not stone, and that the Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else that slowly took the likeness of trees owing to their inborn love of trees. (Not all were good [words illegible]) The Ents thus had mastery over stone. The males were devoted to Oromë, but the Wives to Yavanna

'Letter 247; Letters of Tolkien'

All nit picking aside, the Dwarves were still the Third Born. (Despite their claim to being the second born.) Men of course, awoke close after the Elves in Tolkien’s' latter writings.

Retired Manwe · Jan 23, 2004

"But I will not suffer this: that these should come before the Firstborn of my design, nor that thy impatience should be rewarded. They shall sleep now in the darkness under stone, and shall not come forth until the Firstborn have awakened upon Earth; and until that time thou and they shall wait, though long it seem. But when the time comes I will awaken them..."

Judging by the underlined bit, wouldn't it suggest that Aule had created the dwarves first? Because Eru says 'But I will not suffer this: that these should come before' meaning that Aule has created the dwarves and that Eru is trying to prevent them being first?
And it also says 'the Firstborn of my design' meaning that they were his first ones but maybe not Aules?
Eh Laurelin?

Khazad · Jan 24, 2004

If I remember right dwarfs did not have their own will after Aules making. They only moved and act when Aule focused his mind on them, but when he did other things dwarfs just stopped. They were mere robots then, not living beings and so could not count as a "born" being. Only Iluvatar gave them free will because Ilu saw how much Aule loved them, Aule only created their bodies.

I would not count them to same category with first and second borns. They were because of Aules desire, mayby Ilu knew it before, but still dwarfs are somehow special, things made by a Vala. Dont know about Hobbits thought

Elanor2 · Jan 28, 2004

Lantarion said:
Indeed, but the spirits inhabiting the hröar of 'Ents' were Ainur, and therefore of the oldest race possible.
So in that sense, as I said, the Ents would be the oldest. They had to have existed in some form of course, before being put into their Ent-bodies.

Hi Lantarion,
You keep on saying that the Ents are Ainur, but can you give some quotes on that? I have reviewed again my SIL and as far as I understand, the Ents are the creation of Yavanna as much as the Dwarves are from Aule (both with a little help fro Eru, of course).
In that case, the question of wether they are Firstborn of not would depend on their awakening, like for the others.

Inderjit S · Jan 28, 2004

Khazad-Hobbits are Men.

Elanor2-look at my post with the quotes.

Lantarion · Jan 28, 2004

Inderjit S said:
Khazad-Hobbits are Men.

Woah! Way to simplify it man, that would send the shoes flying off the feet of some newbies!
But yes Elanor2, Inderjit has posted some quotes showing that the Ents were Maiar; at least that is what we must assume. Yavanna "summoned spirits from afar" and they inhabited the hröar provided for them as caretakers of the olvar. 'Spirits' aren't necessarily Maiar, but without a doubt Ainur.

Inderjit S · Jan 28, 2004

I think the term 'Ainur' is more suited to the task then 'Maiar' since Maiar refers to the Ainur who followed the Valar to Arda, whilst 'Ainur' is a all-encompassing term for spirits.

Khazad · Jan 31, 2004

Newbies...

Yeah, it was mayby mentioned in UT that hobbits were originated from men, its been quite awhile since I last time had time to read it. When I was younger I used to read only Tolkien, but I'm getting old and my memory is not as good as it used to be. Still, hope we could keep this kind of newbies thing away from here. Otherwise it might be that we newbies do not write here anymore

Why ents cannot be same sort of spirits as Tom was? Many people think that Tom is not a maia or vala, but some sort of earth spirit Mayby you could count ents like it too And I do not think Tom was a earth spirit, but a maia. What I think about ents? Well, they were ents, mystery as many Tolkiens beings in ME, and I love that mystery type of reality.

Baruk Khazad! · Jan 31, 2004

Yeah, it was mayby mentioned in UT that hobbits were originated from men, its been quite awhile since I last time had time to read it. When I was younger I used to read only Tolkien, but I'm getting old and my memory is not as good as it used to be. Still, hope we could keep this kind of newbies thing away from here. Otherwise it might be that we newbies do not write here anymore

here here

The thing that puzzles me most about Hobbits is that though they are of the race of men, what conditions had they endured that had made them evolve into what they are now known?

Why ents cannot be same sort of spirits as Tom was?

Tolkien's works concerning the Ents clearly state that the Ents are a race of middle earth, just as the Dwarves are the children of Aule, Ents are the children of Yavanna

Many people think that Tom is not a maia or vala, but some sort of earth spirit

Sauron was a maia, yet weak to the rings power, just as gandalf would be with the ring, he would not be able to avoid its power, but when Tom slips on the ring and he does not disappear and nothing weird seems to happen to him, one must think, he must be something EXTREMELY special, beyond our comprehension

Well, they were ents, mystery as many Tolkiens beings in ME, and I love that mystery type of reality.

not as mysterious as you think, by piecing together the information given about them, you can actually learn more about them than you can dwarves

Khazad · Jan 31, 2004

I do not believe that any maia would have become invisible if wearing a ring. Not Gandalf, not Sauron, and not Tom. Gandalf was afraid that ring might use his weak point, that little drop of evil that was in him to corrupt him, that Gandalfs will power would have not been strong enough to resist ring, or ring would have been able to root in his mind. Still Tom had no any need to possess or rule, those attributes that ring used to manipulate so that users would have turned to evil. Tom was pure, could even say too simple for ring to manipulate him. What would have Tom wanted? Forests as they used to be? Ring needed certain kind of characters to work with, to corrupt, and Tom did not have them. Well, this is what I think.

About hobbits, I would also like to know exactly the same thing

And ents, yes there is information, but when someone starts to make conclusions that they are maiar I think they have gone little too far from the text. But, that is the meaning of this forum, to discuss.

Baruk Khazad! · Jan 31, 2004

go to the Encyclopedia of Arda and look up Tom Bombadil and read about him and the ring
I didnt explain it very well

Lantarion · Feb 1, 2004

Khazad said:
Still, hope we could keep this kind of newbies thing away from here. Otherwise it might be that we newbies do not write here anymore

I was afraid the usage of that word would strike up something like this..
What I meant was that for somebody who knows virtually very little of Tolkien's universe (and please don't assume I'm talking about anybody specifically, because I'm not, and I was not at the time) would most likely be rather shocked at an outright statement like "Hobbits are Men". I'm very sorry if my use of the word hurt anybody's feelings.

Khazad said:
I do not believe that any maia would have become invisible if wearing a ring. Not Gandalf, not Sauron, and not Tom.

Tom is not a Maia. As far as things have been ovserved in various threads dealing with the issue.
But you have a definite point; this is what I am saying with my thoery of the One Ring being an enhancer of the inherent powers of Maiar specifically, and all lesser beings in terms of fëar would experience side-effects like invisibility and slow corruption.

Khazad · Feb 1, 2004

No problems, I'm still here!

Encyclopedia of Arda? Wheres that? Is it in this forum or is it a book?

I have read some time ago whole Tom discussion done in this forum and it was very interesting to read. Still I do have so probs to think he is some sort of Spirit of Earth, who will die only when whole world is destroid, some divine soul of earth. I personally would still classify him as a maia.

I think I will go to Tom discussion and ask one question.

Grond · Feb 2, 2004

Khazad said:
No problems, I'm still here!

Encyclopedia of Arda? Wheres that? Is it in this forum or is it a book?

I have read some time ago whole Tom discussion done in this forum and it was very interesting to read. Still I do have so probs to think he is some sort of Spirit of Earth, who will die only when whole world is destroid, some divine soul of earth. I personally would still classify him as a maia.

I think I will go to Tom discussion and ask one question.

First off... the Encyclopedia of Arda is just another work of scholars attempting to "interpret" what the author meant. If you want to see a good debate on Tom and his origins, look up the debate between Ancalagon and myself in the archives on this site. As for who was oldest... I've seen several post that there were no original Elves left on Middle-earth. I would like someone to prove that to me.

from The Silmarillion, Of the Coming of the Elves and the Captivity of Melkor,
Then one arose in the host of Olwë, which was ever the hindmost on the road; Lenwë he was called. he forsook the westward march, and led away a numerous people, southwards down the great river, and they passed out of the knowledge of their kin until long years were past. Those were the Nandor; and they became a people apart, unlike their kin, save that they loved water, and dwelt most beside falls and running streams. Greater knowledge they had of living things, tree and herb, bird and beast, than all other Elves. In after years Denethor, son of Lenwë turned again west at last, and led a part of that people over the mountains into Beleriand ere the rising of the Moon.

From the Nandor were descended the Silvan Elves from which the peoples of both Thranduil's realm and Celeborn's realm were descended. There is nothing to say that a Firstborn was not among them.

Cheers,

grond

Baruk Khazad! · Feb 2, 2004

Was Tom a Maia?
This a very common suggestion, to the extent that it is sometimes treated almost as 'fact'. There is, though, no direct evidence for this - it seems to be based on the idea that since Tom can't be a Vala, and there is no other possibility, he must be a Maia. As we'll see, these are both flawed assumptions - Tom might be a Vala, and there is at least one other possibility.

Though we can't say for certain that Tom wasn't one of the Maiar, there are grave difficulties with this position. The most important of these is that the Ring had no effect on him:

"Then Tom put the Ring round the end of his little finger and held it up to the candlelight... There was no sign of Tom disappearing!"
The Fellowship of the Ring I 7, In the House of Tom Bombadil

There were other mighty Maiar in Middle-earth at the time of the War of the Ring, especially Sauron, Saruman and Gandalf, and all of these were in some sense under the power of the Ring. Yet Tom is unaffected by its power of invisibility, nor does he feel any desire to keep it (he hands it back to Frodo 'with a smile'). Tolkien himself points out the importance of Tom's immunity. On this topic, he says:

"The power of the Ring over all concerned, even the Wizards or Emissaries, is not a delusion - but it is not the whole picture, even of the then state and content of that part of the Universe."
The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien, No 153, dated 1954

Arandinn · Feb 2, 2004

Heil!
We don't know when the Elves were created.It's true that Seven Fathers were made before awaken of the Elves, but it's said that the Elves were the first awaken in Middle-Earth .So they was really the first race in Middle-Earth.Mayby they were created before the Seven Fathers. THINK?

Khazad · Feb 2, 2004

About Tom, lets continue in Tom Bombadil tread in Halls of Fire.

Khazad · Feb 2, 2004

Grond said:
If you want to see a good debate on Tom and his origins, look up the debate between Ancalagon and myself in the archives on this site.

Could not find it in Achieves or did you refer to The Hall of Fires Tom discussion?

Gothmog · Feb 2, 2004

The Debate between Grond and Anc. is not in the site Archives but in the archives of the Guild of Tolkienology and can be found Here

Enjoy the read and I hope it helps

Grond · Feb 2, 2004

Gothmog said:
The Debate between Grond and Anc. is not in the site Archives but in the archives of the Guild of Tolkienology and can be found Here

Enjoy the read and I hope it helps

Thank you Gothmog and I must apologize for forgetting that Ancalagon and my debate was on whether Tom's girlfriend Goldberry was a Maia or not. Same basic principal though. LOL!

Cheers,

grond

Aren't the ⛏️Dwarves the Oldest?

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