• Welcome to The Tolkien Forum! Connect with fellow Tolkien enthusiasts and join a community that is over two decades old, and still going strong. We look forward to meeting you.  Register

Arrrrrrrrrgh!!!!!!!!!

Boromir's Lothlorien statement about Denethor was also an invention of the film makers. It was also film-Boromir's opinion, without the backing of a scene showing Denethor to be the leader that Boromir wanted Aragorn to believe he was.

All the visual evidence showed Denethor to be unreasonably biased against Faramir whilst glorying in Boromir's successes. (The quote given by aragil shows the contrast between the Tolkien reality and the Jackson portrayal).
 

The claim was made that he was presented as a crackpot and insane from the beginning. Now that I have forced the issue, those words are not being used anymore and that was my whole point. He was not portrayed as insane until after boromirs death. voila tout.
 

I'm in this thread to read other people's opinions of the film, to hear accounts of specific scenes, to believe those accounts, and to comment on those accounts. If I find later that any of those accounts have been false, and I have made comments based on those false accounts, then I will withdraw my comments. I do not believe, however, that I shall be doing that, as I have full confidence in the truthfulness and accuracy of every contributor here!
I haven't pronounced a whole film "crude"; I've accepted someone else's "pronouncement" that a small part of it is "crude".
I don't argue, or discuss, the whole of ROTK: see above.

I've been referring to Denethor only as he appears on the screen, not as Boromir, or anyone else, reports on him. I regard his behaviour on the screen, from his first appearance in TTT, and throughout that appearance, to be done in a wildly over-the-top manner, which others have called "crude". I accept the "crude", as a matter of cinematography, but I don't say "insane" or "crackpot"; I just think PJ's characterisation of him is so far-fetched as to be undeserving of comment. I've read only a little about D in ROTK, from which I gather he is rather better at first, but then goes out in an absurd conflagration - back to "crude" again?!
 

It is clear to me wny you are so off-base with most of your opinions. They really are not yours and to debate an issue with you that you haven't experienced yourself is destined to go nowhere.

joxy said:
I haven't pronounced a whole film "crude"; I've accepted someone else's "pronouncement" that a small part of it is "crude".

The point is that until you see the rest of denathors scenes, you are basing your opinion on half of how he was represented.


You cannot ignore parts of PJ's vision of denathor and then add extra signnificance to other parts. His presentation of denathor by boromir is as valid and demands consideration as much as his actual scenes do.
 
No one is asking for your to like it, damn!, its a great trilogy, based on book or not
 
Witch-King said:
No one is asking for your to like it, damn!, its a great trilogy, based on book or not

You forgot to add In My Opinion . In the book Denethor had a reason for disliking Faramir (jealousy of Gandalf). In the movie he didn't. That being said, Faramir taking leave of his father and the city is, IMHO, one of the best scenes of ROTK.
 
Foe-Hammer, in his/her wisdom, wrote:

The claim was made that he was presented as a crackpot and insane from the beginning. Now that I have forced the issue, those words are not being used anymore and that was my whole point.

That claim was made by moi, and the reason I don't make the claim anymore is because you're so blinkered into your hostile polemic against those who disagree with you that I really can't be bothered with arguing with you. I welcome debate, but you argue, and I just can't be bothered.

Anyonnghi kaseyo?

(That's Korean for 'good-bye.')
 


HAHAHA! Yeah, OK. Ya convinced me.
 
Just thought I'd add an extra "Arrgh"!
This is an anonymous quotation from a Harry Potter appreciation forum, but it's relevant, oh so relevant!:

"Arrgh!! The WB needs to get some pointers from New Line...There they
go screwing up the film for the sake of larger recipt returns, when
if they just made the final edit true to the spirit of the story
*cough*LOTR*cough*, they would get even larger returns in the long
run..."
 
???
I don't see that as relevant, or even correct, joxy. HP is not selling more tickets than LotR, and there is no indication that changes in LotR were made strictly for ticket sales.

Here is something that I find to be relevant, especially since it has a quote my Ms. Rowling herself (a majority of the article has been 'snipped' for space concerns):

What do you know? Critics say that HP's literal take from the books has left the filims somewhat lacking, and Rowling herself says it is more important to be true to the spirit of the work than to be literal. Wonders never cease.
 

Ooooopsie! Be careful. The next thing you know, ole foe-hammer will be claiming that the closer to the book the movies get the less appealing they are.

 
It didn't say that HP was out-selling TLOTR.
I see two relevancies.
The writer was making a point that has often been made here, and that has been questioned - as you question it now! I don't think anyone suggests PJ's changes were made strictly for ticket sales, though the idea has certainly been offered, to some extent, in explanation for them - and, of course, we are still awaiting some alternative reason for them or explanation of them.
He claims that TLOTR would have had even larger returns in the long run if it had been made "true to the spirit of the story". This leaves open the definition of "spirit", and the assessment of how that truth has been maintained - the contention here is that some of PJ's changes are NOT true to the spirit of his source material, and I can add that I find the HP changes ARE true to theirs.

That's a very interesting part of the quotation, that you choose actually to underline. Now we know it all: the "creative audacity and spark", that this imaginative writer has somehow managed to discover in PJ's LOTR, actually consists of "some PG-13, "Pirates of the Caribbean" pizazz"! I don't think that's what he meant, but he DID say it!
 
This writer is not all that imaginitive. He is merely reporting what he perceives to be the prevalent opinion in the movie-going public. The HP films are popular, especially among pre-teens and their parents. Other people may enjoy them, but not to the extent that 'other people' generally enjoy the LotR series. This is an established 'fact', that can be shown in many different manners- critical reaction, awards, box-office, or review-based web-sites. In comparing LotR, HP and PotC the author is simply stating what he believes to be the reasons for the relative levels of the excitement towards these films- nothing too crazy about it.
 
It is very easy for the npw to reject everything that they dislike about this film and insist that their version would have been more successful. They haven't had to create anything. They are standing on the shoulder of a giant (jrr) and looking into the eyes of another giant (pj) and claiming they (the npw) are equal to PJ. I have yet to see one of them claim, or prove that they understand the processes of filmaking, writing screenplays, direction, and everything else PJ has the experience in, to bolster their arguments one iota.

And apparently trying to illustrate to them what does and did work on film, and why, is lost on them because they continue to make the same unsupported claims that have been defeated by those explanations time and time again.
 
aragil said:
In comparing LotR, HP and PotC the author is simply stating what he believes to be the reasons for the relative levels of the excitement towards these films.
I thought he was stating that, particularly in respect of "pizazz", TLOTR and POTC had more in common with each other than with HP. I haven't seen POTC and I can only guess at what he meant by "pizazz", but my guess it that what he would have liked in HP is more of the worse aspects of TLOTR.

I hadn't realised that you were one of those on the band wagon of "critical reaction, awards, box-office, or review-based web-sites". History has proved time and time again how unreliable the first of those is in determining the true value of any form of entertainment, and I see no reason to believe that the other three more recent indicators will prove to be more reliable.
 
Foe-Hammer said:
I have yet to see one of them claim, or prove that they understand the processes of filmaking, writing screenplays, direction, and everything else PJ has the experience in, to bolster their arguments one iota.
This particular drum is taking an awful lot of hammering these days.
There are innumerable areas in which it is possible to see faults in a product, and to offer suggestions as to how those faults could be corrected, without having the technical knoweldge involved in its manufacture - or crafting. I can see those barrels disappear; and hear those lines that clash with their context; and it's easy to suggest how those faults could, and most certainly should, have been avoided. I don't think, either, that it would be all that difficult, or that it would take all that much education, to avoid the confusing actions, visuals, characterisations, even appearances, that PJ's expertise has offered us.
Give me the money and I'll happily check the continuity, and the dialogue, of PJ's next film - unless it is King Kong.
 
I wasn't speaking to intrinsic value of a piece of art- beauty is in the eye of the beholder, that's my philosophy. However, the reviewer was speaking about how popular the LotR films were- and I consider that those four items are pretty good indicators of popularity.
 
I am an artist. Occasionally I work in what is called a "mixed medium" - that is, fabric with paint or glass or something else that isn't strictly one type of art or craft. Well, to my mind, Jackson used a "mixed medium" in these films. On the one hand, he worked so very hard to create Middle-earth; indeed, TOLKIEN's Middle-earth! He brought in artists who had done work based upon Tolkien and who would have read and studied enough to see and know if something were egregiously out of place. He brought in actors who physically matched (as far as possible) Tolkien's frequently incomplete descriptions of the characters - even going so far as to fire an actor who did not have the maturity necessary to play Aragorn and getting a fine but little known actor who had both the ability and the physical appearance to do justice to the role. He built sets, crafted armor, apparently listened to those knowledgeable about Tolkien and the book - and led us all to believe that finally LOTR was coming to the screen as truly as it would be possible to do given the change in medium.

And then, after all of that, Jackson fell back on his previous film experience and gave us "modern" and sometimes quite crude humor, out of place in the very world he had labored for so long and with such effort to construct. As the films progressed, no sooner did he manage to build up tension then he set about knocking it down with some stupid "in joke" or pratfall by one of the characters. Gasp! Frodo is dying (or wraithing!)! His eyes are turning strange colors and rolling back in his head!!! His breathing sounds like an old vacuum!!!! Aragorn and Sam are rushing about in the dark trying to find athelas to save him!!!! And the next thing you know, a sweet young thing has a knife at the throat of the hero making jokes! Please, O please! WHY???? Why break up the tension that you are building with a silly, sophomoric bit of nonsense that was nothing less than irrational within the context of the story? And thus it went for three films. Least in the first but getting worse until there was too much action in ROTK for Jackson to have the time for such idiocy.

I have always found that the trouble with using a "mixed medium" technique is that it frequently leads to "mixed results". In my opinion, that's what happened here.
 
Looking back at that scene, I might tend to agree with you IF I chose to hack the film into little pieces for criticism. We do not know who is holding the sword against frodos neck until after that scene is over AND arwen is shown as an elven princess. This is the impression I had of her after seeing the movie in spite her challenge of the nazgul at the ford. That is why I was so totally surprised at the puriests condemnation of PJ for showing her as a xena-warrior type. His obvious plan for her was as an elven princess who happens to be able to wield a sword.
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…