Can 🧝Elves communicate telepathically?

[Mithrellas.Dagoranna]

I have read one discussion about Telepathy. Written in 2008. At this forum.

I have even read about Osanwe Kenta or, Sanwe Latya at The Tolkien Gateway too.

So:

1. Can elves telepathy to other elves? If yes, how many can join? Maybe there was a "Telepathy thingy group"
2. Can elves telepathy with other freepeople folks? Or perhaps with the foe? Vice versa (freefolks-elves) (foe-elves) (foe-freefolks) (freefolks-foe)
3. Is there any distance conditions for doing the telepathy? Maybe from Rivendell to Lorien???
4. Can telepthy used by the free folks to call for help to the Valar?

Thanks.

 

[Elthir]

"Can elves telepathy to other elves?"

Yes.

"If yes, how many can join?"

Pengolodh says: "... only great minds can converse with more than one other at the same time; several may confer, but then at one time only one is imparting, while the others receive."

"Can elves telepathy with other freepeople folks?"

The text is concerned primarily with the Eldar, Valar and Maiar, and Men are not specially considered. Pengolodh only notes: "Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the hroa, over which most men have small control by the will."

"Is there any distance conditions for doing the telepathy? Maybe from Rivendell to Lorien???"

"For distance in itself offers no impediment to osanwe."

"Can telepthy used by the free folks to call for help to the Valar?"

I would guess this could be attempted, but there's the mater of will for example. Pengolodh says that all minds are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength, adding:

"A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties. The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties."

And the account goes on, into detail and into matters like affinity, urgency, authority, and strengthening (as perception is dimmed by bodies and doubly dimmed when two Incarnates try to speak by mind), and even the practice becoming more difficult by neglect, due to the habitual use of language...

... language being clearer and more precise for Incarnates.

__________

Tolkien had published (Many Partings) a scene in which it appears Celeborn, Galadriel (and possibly other Elves), Elrond and Gandalf were "conversing" by (at least sometimes) "looking from mind to mind"

These folk were friends and in close proximity...

... and for myself, I'm not sure how I feel about distance not being a factor, as I think this could open up some questions concerning the tales, as well as lend itself to arguable "over use" or "over simplification" (subjective as these things are) by fans writing fiction.

Admittedly I haven't yet given the matter of distance enough thought really, to say whether or not I find this truly problematic with respect to all the tales. But as there are multiple factors concerning osanwe, and multiple tales and scenarios...

... I think this would take some time and energy!

 

[Mithrellas.Dagoranna]

"Can elves telepathy to other elves?"

Yes.

"If yes, how many can join?"

Pengolodh says: "... only great minds can converse with more than one other at the same time; several may confer, but then at one time only one is imparting, while the others receive."

"Can elves telepathy with other freepeople folks?"

The text is concerned primarily with the Eldar, Valar and Maiar, and Men are not specially considered. Pengolodh only notes: "Men have the same faculty as the Quendi, but it is in itself weaker, and is weaker in operation owing to the strength of the hroa, over which most men have small control by the will."

"Is there any distance conditions for doing the telepathy? Maybe from Rivendell to Lorien???"

"For distance in itself offers no impediment to osanwe."

"Can telepthy used by the free folks to call for help to the Valar?"

I would guess this could be attempted, but there's the mater of will for example. Pengolodh says that all minds are equal in status, though they differ in capacity and strength, adding:

"A mind by its nature perceives another mind directly. But it cannot perceive more than the existence of another mind (as something other than itself, though of the same order) except by the will of both parties. The degree of will, however, need not be the same in both parties."

And the account goes on, into detail and into matters like affinity, urgency, authority, and strengthening (as perception is dimmed by bodies and doubly dimmed when two Incarnates try to speak by mind), and even the practice becoming more difficult by neglect, due to the habitual use of language...

... language being clearer and more precise for Incarnates.

__________

Tolkien had published (Many Partings) a scene in which it appears Celeborn, Galadriel (and possibly other Elves), Elrond and Gandalf were "conversing" by (at least sometimes) "looking from mind to mind"

These folk were friends and in close proximity...

... and for myself, I'm not sure how I feel about distance not being a factor, as I think this could open up some questions concerning the tales, as well as lend itself to arguable "over use" or "over simplification" (subjective as these things are) by fans writing fiction.

Admittedly I haven't yet given the matter of distance enough thought really, to say whether or not I find this truly problematic with respect to all the tales. But as there are multiple factors concerning osanwe, and multiple tales and scenarios...

... I think this would take some time and energy!

Wowwwwww!!! Really cool!! Okay this time, I have noever questions again. For now. Thankssss

What do the free folks use for showing or telling the time?

Do they use minute? Second? Hour? Day? Month?

Or else?

What about like Morning, Noon, do they use it too?

(Sorry for bad English!)

What do the free folks use for transactions or dealings? Do they trade?

What is the age range or age limit for Hobbits?

What about men?

Dwarves?

Ents?

 

[Starbrow]

The Hobbits have money.

 

[Elthir]

I think you can safely use all the "regular" nomenclature here. Tolkien does.

The idea is that JRRT is translating a tale or accounts into Modern English and substituting modern terms here and there... you can see some of the "true" (Elvish) names of weekdays and months in the Appendices for example...

... but I don't feel they are a must for fan fiction writers.

I don't think the answer for Ents is known...

There's a late letter (1972) in which Tolkien notes that Ents and Entwives would find some earthly paradise until the "end of this world" at the same time noting that he thinks there would be no reunion for them in history...

... in other words, he doesn't appear to be talking about the survival of Ents (to the end of the world) by way of more Entings.

Galadriel's opinion was that Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else souls that slowly took on the likeness of trees [note to draft letter 247, 1963]. Even trees die obviously, and how long could Entish spirits sustain their bodies?

Unless, in the 1972 comment, JRRT means that the Entish spirits live on in Arda. Even the souls of Men don't "die" as in cease to exist, but normally Men's spirits must leave the Earth and its time of course.


By the way, and it's up to you of course, but why not continue the same thread for "Elves, Men, Arda"... meaning, instead of Elves parts 1,2,3 in different threads for example, keep all the questions and answers about Elves in the same thread, and the same for Men and so on.

That way you'll have three threads instead of multiple threads about three subjects (so far).

Just a suggestion

 

[Rohirrim]

I was going to ask the same system. A relatively advanced culture like Gondor would need some sort of monitory system to support commerce and trade. I assume the dwarfs would only be interested in gold and I imagine that the Elves would not sully themselves with such things.

 

[Elthir]

As noted, we have the Hobbits using "pennies" for example: "Bill Ferny's price was twelve silver pennies; and that was indeed at least three times the pony's value in those parts."

In a posthumously published text, Tolkien noted: "In Gondor tharni was used for a silver coin, the fourth part of the castar (...)."

When the Dwaf Nar was at Moria Gate (Appendix A): "... but the voice of Azog said: "Drop it! Be off! Here's your fee, beggar-beard." A small bag struck him. It held a few coins of little worth."

And while not a reference to coin specifically, when the Dwarves worked for Thingol: "For Melian taught them much wisdom, which they were eager to get; whereas Thingol rewarded them with many fair pearls."

And while not a reference to money yet again (!), it's possibly interesting that in the very early Fall of Gondolin we know there was a place called the "Great Market" (and "the square of the Lesser Market" too) which was described "... that place with its stores and its goodly things of fine workmanship was a waste of flames."

Or that is... since I took the time to look it up, recalling the "Market" reference, I posted it anyway.

 

[Mithrellas.Dagoranna]

I think you can safely use all the "regular" nomenclature here. Tolkien does.

The idea is that JRRT is translating a tale or accounts into Modern English and substituting modern terms here and there... you can see some of the "true" (Elvish) names of weekdays and months in the Appendices for example...

... but I don't feel they are a must for fan fiction writers.

I don't think the answer for Ents is known...

There's a late letter (1972) in which Tolkien notes that Ents and Entwives would find some earthly paradise until the "end of this world" at the same time noting that he thinks there would be no reunion for them in history...

... in other words, he doesn't appear to be talking about the survival of Ents (to the end of the world) by way of more Entings.

Galadriel's opinion was that Ents were either souls sent to inhabit trees, or else souls that slowly took on the likeness of trees [note to draft letter 247, 1963]. Even trees die obviously, and how long could Entish spirits sustain their bodies?

Unless, in the 1972 comment, JRRT means that the Entish spirits live on in Arda. Even the souls of Men don't "die" as in cease to exist, but normally Men's spirits must leave the Earth and its time of course.


By the way, and it's up to you of course, but why not continue the same thread for "Elves, Men, Arda"... meaning, instead of Elves parts 1,2,3 in different threads for example, keep all the questions and answers about Elves in the same thread, and the same for Men and so on.

That way you'll have three threads instead of multiple threads about three subjects (so far).

Just a suggestion

Well, its unthinkable for me!! But thanks! I'll do it!!