Could the Nine control their invisibility before they became wraiths?

The Rings given to the Dwarves had the same powers as those given to Men. However, the Dwarves were of a different kind to both Elves and Men (both of whom were very closely related being the Children of Eru). So it was not that the Rings differed but that something made to affect Eruhini would not have the same effects on a totaly different people, namely the Children of Aule.

I'm paraphrasing by memory, so I might be off a bit.

The Dwarves were very stubbornly resistant to the domination of others, and did not 'fade' into wraiths like Men. They kept their rings hidden and used them only sparingly to aquire wealth. The rings inflamed greed, which led to the destruction of many. Sauron, enraged that the Dwarves did not bend to his will, also sent Dragons and whatever other nasty things he could to plague them.

To be invisible all the time while using a ring would be more of a drawback than a benefit. People are not amazed by the might and splendor of a Lord they can't see, and if you take off your ring in order to interact with others, your power would lessen. I believe that someone who can fully use or master a ring of power can also master its effects, choosing if and when they become invisible or anything else.

Gildor said:

I'm paraphrasing by memory, so I might be off a bit.

The Dwarves were very stubbornly resistant to the domination of others, and did not 'fade' into wraiths like Men. They kept their rings hidden and used them only sparingly to aquire wealth. The rings inflamed greed, which led to the destruction of many. Sauron, enraged that the Dwarves did not bend to his will, also sent Dragons and whatever other nasty things he could to plague them.

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Yes, that is basically correct, but if you want the quote, here it is:

The Lord of the Rings, Appendix A, "Durin's Folk"

For the Dwarves had proved untameable by this means. The only power over them that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things, so that if they lacked them all other good things seemed profitless, and they were filled with wrath and desire for vengeance on all who deprived them. But they were made from their beginning of a kind to resist most steadfastly any domination. Though they could be slain or broken, they could not be reduced to shadows enslaved to another will; and for the same reason their lives were not affected by any Ring, to live either longer or shorter because of it. All the more did Sauron hate the possessors and desire to dispossess them.

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So it would seem that the Seven Rings, though the power to reduce a being to wraith-from was in them, did not wield this power over the Dwarves, because of their untameable wills.

But it would seem that Sauron infused their rings with some lust for gold. Any thoughts on that? I understand the non-wraithing/corruption process, but I dont think thats the only thing that was in those rings.

Dáin Ironfoot I said:

But it would seem that Sauron infused their rings with some lust for gold. Any thoughts on that? I understand the non-wraithing/corruption process, but I dont think thats the only thing that was in those rings.

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Actually, as I read the Sil, the rings were not made specifically for dwarves or men. The Sil says that the Great Rings were made by the elves with input from Sauron (except for the Three). When Sauron made the One to rule the rest, Celebrimbor was aware of him and his plan and the elves stop wearing the Three and hid them from him. Sauron then demanded that all the Rings be turned over to him and made war on the elves when they refused. In the ensuing war Sauron gained all the rings except the Three. He then gave out Rings as he saw fit in order to trap and enslave dwarves and men. The dwarves were given seven and men nine, however, because of the dwarves own innate nature the only effect on them was to inflame their greed. I don't think it is correct to say that Sauron specifically made the seven for the dwarves or specifically to make them greedy. In fact, if I remember correctly, Sauron was infuriated by the plan backfiring (as far as the dwarves were concerned) and that is why he sent dragons after the dwarves and fought to take them back himself, the last being taken from Thorin's father in Dol Guldur.

Greenwood said:

don't think it is correct to say that Sauron specifically made the seven for the dwarves or specifically to make them greedy.

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Almost certainly not; what would have been the point in doing so? If he wanted to control the Dwarves, instilling more greed in them would have more likely turned them all the more against Sauron (or 'Annatar', hah what a joke).

But I see no implication that the Seven would have given invisibility. Here is my take on the matter:

The One Ring. Its task was to emphasize the inherent power of the Maia weilding it. If one of lesser stature than a Maia wore it, as a side effect that person would be rendered invisible. This, as I see it, was because of the Ring's innate nature of possibly granting the wearer extended sight of the Unseen world, in addition to emphasizing the other powers of the Maia.

The Nine. They were completely sullied and under the influence of the One Ring; their task was to enslave the Men wearing them, to bend them under the will of the maker of the One (not wielder, maker). Because these Nine rather obviously had a very similar quality of enhancing existing skills, it too had the possibility (probably side-effect) to render their wearers invisible; only the capacity of the Nine was not as great as that of the One, and so even a non-Ainuric being could learn to control his invisibility while wearing one of the Nine (as the Nazgûl did, and were then turned over time into wraiths).

The Seven. These too were sullied, and had the same task as the Nine did; but because of the remarkable hardihood of the Naugrim which Aulë had instilled in them, Sauron's sorceries did not adversely affect the Dwarves. Their lust and maybe luck in finding treasures was most probably increased (Cf. the Seven Hordes), but the main task of the Ring (enslaving the Dwarves) and its side-effect (invisibility) was not achieved (which was why Sauron was so angry). I believe that if, say, a Man would have come across one of the Seven, it would have rendered him invisible in addition to strengthening his lust and luck for treasure.


This is just my take on the matter, upheld by opinions gathered from the texts.

I think you've got it spot on there, Lanty!

Dáin Ironfoot I said:

But it would seem that Sauron infused their rings with some lust for gold. Any thoughts on that? I understand the non-wraithing/corruption process, but I dont think thats the only thing that was in those rings.

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The power that Sauron put in both the Seven and the Nine to reduce the bearers to wraiths was in the Seven, but Dwarves could not be dominated like this. It was an un-anticipated flaw in Sauron's plan.

The only power over them {the Dwarves} that the Rings wielded was to inflame their hearts with a greed of gold and precious things...

That was the only thing that the Rings did to Dwarves (though the power to enslave wills weaker than Dwarves' was in the Seven). Doubtless this "inflaming lust" that the Rings caused in Dwarves was a work of Sauron, but really this was just a "side effect", I believe. Because of Sauron's evil will, he managed to exploit the Rings' ability to "breed gold" into something that could cause strife and harm between Dwarves and other races, but more importantly amongst Dwarves themselves.

The main power that Sauron put into the Seven (as with the Nine) was to enslave the bearers by turning them into a wraith form. This was all that Sauron needed if he wanted to control those bearers. Any other powers were side effects IMO. But the Dwarves did not prove so easy to enslave, so the only power that the Rings wielded over the Dwarves was this "inflaming lust". Note the word "wielded", not possessed.

Personally, I don't even really see the point in this thread. The Great Rings (with the exception of the three) conferred invisibility upon the wearer by his/her choice in the matter, it's clearly stated in the text. The reason the Nazgûl became wraiths was because they used the Rings to confer invisibility more often than they should. Eventually becoming 'mired' between the physical and spiritual realms. Now, what would make this thread more interesting is 'was invisibility an intended mechanism of the Great Rings'? Invisibility, being a desirable thing (we know that Gollum enjoyed it), intended by Sauron as a device to bring them under his dominion through the desirability of the One, it seems the Nine served their purpose being invisible, now didn't it?

Ulairi said:

The Great Rings (with the exception of the three) conferred invisibility upon the wearer by his/her choice in the matter, it's clearly stated in the text.

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And where is the justification for your exception above? Gandalf says "the Great Rings", he does not say "the Great Rings with the exception of the Three". And you cannot cite Elrond, Galadriel and Gandalf never being referred to as invisible. Gandalf implies the invisibility thing is a power the Great Rings confer on "mortals". None of the Three were ever possessed by a mortal, so how do you know they were an exception? Gandalf's statement does not exclude them. [Added in edit: Question retracted given Gothmog's following post. ]

The point of the thread is to get readers thinking about something that they might not have thought about before.

His justification comes from my post above where I cite not Gandalf but JRRT. In one of his letters (letter 131) He comments on the Great Rings.

The Elves of Eregion made Three supremely beautiful and powerful rings, almost solely of their own imagination, and directed to the preservation of beauty: they did not confer invisibility.

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I agree with you about the point of the thread.

Thank you Gothmog, I will look up the letter to read the whole thing.

I must say, my first reaction is that JRRT has created a contradiction, but he has done that sort of thing before (i.e. the great Glorfindel debate).

The letter can also be found at the front of The Silmarillion.