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Could there be a "good" orc/goblin/troll etc?


Tolkien points out in multiple places that the Orcs survived the end of the Third Age, and became very uncommon by the middle of the 4th Age (so much so as most people thought them extinct).

And, as I point out above, there are several different possible origins, and thus different possible outcomes in terms of their “redemption;”

The issue is relevant for the entire History of Middle-earth, as been pointed-out by others, earlier the the thread.

MB
 
I keep seeing different theories as to what exactly orcs are... but in the Silmarillion doesn't Melkor capture some elves and turn them into orcs? It's on page 50 in my edition
I'm rather confused because I keep seeing different theories as to what exactly orcs are... but in the Silmarillion doesn't Melkor capture some elves and turn them into orcs? It's on page 50 in my edition...
 
The scope of the question was the whole history of Middle Earth not just the period after the destruction of the ring.

You are right there, Rivendell_librarian; point taken. So, let me correct my thoughts.

The destruction of the Ring caused also the destruction of the power of Sauron’s domination, and thus his power on his creatures:

From all his policies and webs of fear and treachery, from all his stratagems and wars his mind shook free; and throughout his realm a tremor ran, his slaves quailed, and his armies halted, and his captains suddenly steerless, bereft of will, wavered and despaired. For they were forgotten. The whole mind and purpose of the Power that wielded them was now bent with overwhelming force upon the Mountain.​

His downfall was then followed by the apocalyptic scenes among his creatures, as was mentioned before.

I hold it, that as long as Sauron’s will was imposed on his creatures, it would seem difficult to imagine a “converted” orc or troll before the destruction of the Ring (I admittedly did not make that thought clear enough), whereas they perished, be it immediately or at least quite quickly, afterwards.

That was just one opinion, obviously; nor should it downplay others' reasoning.
 
If one takes JRRT's comment (from a letter, IIRC) that the beginning of the Fourth Age was about 6,000 years ago, and then adds to that some murkiness about how Saruman bred the (his?) Uruk-hai, plus some of the people fleeing from the south to Bree being described as half-Orcs ... (ask S-eS )
It would seem to me that no more "pure-bred" Orcs exist anymore. And however it was achieved, and by whom, to breed them "pure", it must have been from human stock. "Historical" records start about 1,000 years after the fall of Barad-dûr, by this hypothesis. By this time the "pure-bred" Orcs had been reabsorbed into the mainstream of human stock, as there is no dearth, more precisely no end of Orcish behavior recorded in those historical records.
 

Go to The History of Middle-earth, vol X: Morgoth’s Ring, and several different letters in The Letters of JRR Tolkien, and you will find rather a lot more information on the subject of “Orcs” than is contained in what Christopher Tolkien describes in the former source just mentioned as being the “very premature publication” of The Silmarillion.

Tolkien had several theological, metaphysical, and philosophical paradoxes that arose over “What are Orcs?” during his life, and his struggle to form what is described on p. x of the above mentioned volume of HoM-e as a “coherent theological and metaphysical foundation for Middle-earth.”

That will both clear-up your confusion here, while simultaneously increasing the ambiguity over the issue as a whole.

MB
 

This is a fairly significant misreading of Tolkien’s statements regarding the connection of Middle-earth to our Earth.

Middle-earth isn’t anything, or anywhere in our Earth’s past.

It exists in a possible past.

The works of Boethius, I believe his Theological Tractates and Consolation of Philosophy, contain the relevant material on the issue of Sub-Creation as it relates to Tolkien’s Middle-earth, which will better explain how Tolkien thought of Middle-earth simultaneously as a very real place that exists “in a possible past” of this world, while at the same time being a work of Mythological Fiction, referring to a “place of the imagination.” This is a very Catholic view of something that contains a paradox, very much like the Catholic conception of a Trinity. But it addresses the issue of the “possible past” quite thoroughly.

As Tolkien points out in Letters, No. 153 to Peter Hastings, Middle-earth is indeed a separate world, which had different features of Physics, Chemistry, Biology, and so-on, than does our world. Meaning that while he states elsewhere in Letters that Middle-earth is AKIN to a supposed past of “our Earth.”


So... Tolkien here points out that Middle-earth is a purely imaginary world, distinct from our own, else one would not need “just have to enter it, and begin studying it[s different biology]...” If Middle-earth was indeed our Earth, then the “biological dictum” Tolkien is discussing here in this letter (which concerns Michael Hastings’ inquiries regarding the biological immortality of Elves, their Reincarnation, and how Humans and Elves breed, and the fate of their children) could be resolved by simply studying the biology of the inhabitants of our world, where the genetic lineage of the Elves would remain within the offspring of the 2 Unions of Elves and Men (3, technically), which would be a quite substantial population by now.

This is something we are able to currently do in Biology (trace the Genetic Lineage of people back to specific ancestors for whom we have viable DNA samples. The discovery of the “Mitochondrial Eve” in Africa is just one specific example), and DNA would exist that revealed such properties. There are a great many other things betraying our Earth as being “Middle-earth,” and why attempts to connect the two are doomed to failure.

The quote you may be remembering from Letters is from Letter No. 165, responding to an inquiry a fan made to the Publisher regarding Middle-earth, where Tolkien says at one point during his response:

The Letters of JRR Tolkien. No. 165 said:
... imaginatively this ‘history’ is supposed to take place in a period of the actual Old World of this planet.

However, in many other places in the remaining sources, not the least of which are other letters in Letters, Tolkien makes it very clear that Middle-earth exists no-where in our ACTUAL PAST. Middle-earth represents a “possible past,” in the same way that all Mythology represents a “possible past.”

If one goes back to the sources, whether of fiction, or Theological, Philosophical, Metaphysical, or Academic, and becomes familiar with these (Plato, Aristotle, Boethius, Augustine, Origen, Beowulf, Gothic and Saxon History, the Norse Eddas, William Morris — From whose world Tolkien heavily borrowed — and other works of Chivalric Romance), and then returns to the Primary and Secondary Sources of Tolkien himself, these works then reveal a vast deal of influence and connection to Middle-earth, and many things that previously seemed to be “deeply mysterious” will suddenly become clear as day (like Tom Bombadil, just as one example).

As to the points about “Pure-Bred Orcs,” this again is contingent upon “What is an Orc?”

As is the comments regarding “Half-Orcs.” The comments on that don’t actually say “That is a “Half-Orc,” and this one is “Pure-Bred” for an Orc.” Usually the reference is something along the lines of “He appears to be more than half an Orc,” or something of the sort.

One would first need to resolve what an “Orc” actually is before one can begin any claims about “Pure-Bred,” a term that is especially fraught given that it arises from only two sources, both hugely suspect in terms of being anything real in Biological Terms.

”Pure-Bred” has its origins in the breeding of animals, and even here it is highly questionable in terms of “What genes are “pure” to begin with?”

Which brings us to the second source of “Pure-Breed/Bred:” White Nationalists/Supremacists, Nazis, and Fascists.

While “Race” is something that seems to “Actually Exist” within Middle-earth, it isn’t something that exists in our World.

And, as such, one would need to provide a definition for “Pure-Bred/Breed” to begin with, given that even in domains where such a term has a relevance (Dog and Cat Shows, The Breeding of Cattle and Horses/Thoroughbreds, and so on) it remains something that is nigh impossible to define save in terms of appearance (What is known as “Phenotype” in Biology).

And in Biology, we have discovered that what appear to be identical Phenotypes can arise from categorically different Genotypes (different “Genes,” meaning that the term “Pure-Bred” becomes even harder to define).

This is a subject I have put a lot of time in toward an attempt to resolve or make any sense out of (much as the existence of “Free-Will,” another thing that turns out to be nearly impossible to define in any way that actually means anything) given that “Race” in Middle-earth is an Actual Thing. Dwarves, Elves, Orcs, Humans (including Hobbit), Ents, Trolls, ... These things seem to be “Actual Races” in the terms that this word has come to usually mean... But There needs to be a “Thing,” re: Some-Thing as opposed to No-Thing, that provides a means to determine ”Racial Membership” within Middle-earth... And lacking the means to “enter it and begin studying” it, the ability to discover that “thing” is elusive and complicated in locating.

MB
 
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Middle-earth represents a “possible past,” in the same way that all Mythology represents a “possible past.”
I seriously doubt Mr. O was suggesting that Tolkien was asserting that ME was a "real" place.
Quite. In other letters (mostly to his son Christopher, but perhaps also to Michael) JRRT also states that all of his humanoid races (here more properly applied than to Homo sapiens, for which it is utter nonsense) are meant to display human characteristics: Elves, Men (with Hobbits as a special case), Dwarves, and Orcs. Elves going beyond what humans are capable of in the positive direction (but then there's Fëanor & Co.), Orcs in the negative. Beyond possibility lies plausibility. Elves are the most implausible, Hobbits somewhat less so. But Orcs are just too plausible. JRRT more than once commented on the "Orc-minded" in the real world. Orcishness is a part of humanity, as 5,000 years of written sources make terribly clear. One could say that separating that part of humanity into a separate race (or species) named Orcs clearly marks M-e as a fantasy world. Orcs are us.
 
I think the answer is no. Norman Spinrad was so displeased by the portrayal of the Orcs tthat he wrote a book The Iron Dream, purporting to be by Adolf Hitler, in which millions of similar beings were joyously slaughtered. Orcs are killed on sight. No one ever shed a tear over killing an Orc. Saruman was pitied, but not Orcs. Whatever Tolkien’s religious views were, the characters in the book would like to eradicate every Orc. Were they all misguided? I do not think so. I think that Tolkien religious theories simply do not square with his wonderful tale. I agree with Spinrad.
 
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