Did Celeborn also fight in the battles of Beleriand?

Elthir said:

And by the other way, thank you Sir Ent for things said elsewhere.

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You are welcome.
It is not difficult to note and say things when things of note are being said.

Elthir said:

It's said that no one out of Doriath came to this battle “save Mablung, and Beleg who could not be restrained" [JRRT, Quenta Silmarillion, The Lost Road]

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Big deal [by which I mean it's not a big deal]. Celeborn didn't even "exist" until after Tolkien wrote this text, so Celeborn couldn't have been mentioned here in any case.

And don't bring up the later Quenta typescripts neether, as I'll just point you to Christopher Tolkien's commentary (however general and brief it is, admittedly), about this chapter in The War of the Jewels.

Elthir said:

or “Mablung of Doriath with a small force of Grey-elves” [Grey Annals, wherein it was said that Mablung was unwilling to have no part in these great deeds]

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Well, have you even checked if Celeborn was certainly an Elf of Beleriand when Tolkien wrote the
Grey Annals? If not, once again, arguably he couldn't even have even been in play (imaginatively)
as part of this small force from Doriath (which force fought with axes and bows, incidentally).

Elthir said:

No, I haven't fully checked. Yet.

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I see. Lazy.

Wait, you didn't say this in the thread. Why is it quoted then?

Elthir said:

I got confused for a second.

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Okay, fair enough. Anything else?

Elthir said:

Celeborn appears to be a Sindarin Elf from Beleriand according to the draft text called F4 (Appendix F 4), whereas in the earlier F2 draft, he was one of the Lembi, or "Lingerers", which might mean. . .

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Let me stop you there. Yawn.

Elthir said:

I agree with that much. Nap time.

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Then we agree on something!

Elthir said:

Big deal [by which I mean it's not a big deal]. Celeborn didn't even "exist" until after Tolkien wrote this text, so Celeborn couldn't have been mentioned here in any case.

And don't bring up the later Quenta typescripts neether, as I'll just point you to Christopher Tolkien's commentary (however general and brief it is, admittedly), about this chapter in The War of the Jewels.



Well, have you even checked if Celeborn was certainly an Elf of Beleriand when Tolkien wrote the
Grey Annals? If not, once again, arguably he couldn't even have even been in play (imaginatively)
as part of this small force from Doriath (which force fought with axes and bows, incidentally).




I see. Lazy.

Wait, you didn't say this in the thread. Why is it quoted then?



Okay, fair enough. Anything else?



Let me stop you there. Yawn.



Then we agree on something!

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Of course, all you said is true. However, despite all your research and your great attention and careful to everything, there is a point you missed, or rather you did not think about.

Tolkien created the character of celeborn after writing all the characters, events and wars in The Silmarillion. So it is quite normal that in these wars and when these wars were written, it was not mentioned that celeborn was a character that Tolkien did not create yet. But when tolkien created celeborn after writing the silmarillion, when he wrote celeborn's own personal story, when he wrote celeborn's standalone story; he by shaped the life of the celeborn and wrote that celeborn was in middle earth during those wars, even though he did not mention celeborn's presence in the battles of beleriand. That's why I'm presuming that celeborn fought in the battles of beleriand. by looking celeborn's own independent personal story. so celeborn didn't exist and wasn't created when the silmarillion was written. But when he was created later and he's story was written without being added to the silmarillion, he was written as an elf who lived in Beleriand and was even born in the years of trees. That's why i always say celeborn was in the battles of beleriand or celeborn may have fought.

Teleporno Celeborn said:

However, despite all your research and your great attention and careful to everything, there is a point you missed, or rather you did not think about.

(snip for brevity) But when he was created later and he's story was written without being added to the silmarillion, he was written as an elf who lived in Beleriand and was even born in the years of trees. That's why i always say celeborn was in the battles of beleriand or celeborn may have fought.

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Are you sure I missed this point, or haven't thought about it? Remember I posted (way back when): "First Battle Celeborn isn't mentioned (not surprisingly), but it seems plausible he would take part in some way. Not everyone at a battle actually fights; but maybe Celeborn did."

So I'm very aware that when we "plug in" the Sindarin Celeborn (based on other texts outside of Quenta Silmarillion), that makes it not only possible that he fought in this battle, but in my opinion here, plausible.

Nowhere do I state that since Celeborn wasn't in the 1937 Silmarillion, for example, that he can't ultimately be in a given battle, I'm merely pointing out that in Tolkien's imagination, he couldn't have been there at the time of writing.

In other words, it's just an observation as I delve into the external history. It's a rather obvious statement of course, and I realize that, but some folk may not know when Celeborn "became"
part of the First Age, or in what texts.

And some may not care either, but I enjoy the delving anyway

Elthir said:

Are you sure I missed this point, or haven't thought about it? Remember I posted (way back when): "First Battle Celeborn isn't mentioned (not surprisingly), but it seems plausible he would take part in some way. Not everyone at a battle actually fights; but maybe Celeborn did."

So I'm very aware that when we "plug in" the Sindarin Celeborn (based on other texts outside of Quenta Silmarillion), that makes it not only possible that he fought in this battle, but in my opinion here, plausible.

Nowhere do I state that since Celeborn wasn't in the 1937 Silmarillion, for example, that he can't ultimately be in a given battle, I'm merely pointing out that in Tolkien's imagination, he couldn't have been there at the time of writing.

In other words, it's just an observation as I delve into the external history. It's a rather obvious statement of course, and I realize that, but some folk may not know when Celeborn "became"
part of the First Age, or in what texts.

And some may not care either, but I enjoy the delving anyway

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In short, I find it reasonable and appropriate that Tolkien fought in the Battles of Beleriand in his writings on celeborn, based on his qualifications and where he lived. That's why I think he fought even though I can't say for sure. But by interpreting some of Tolkien's writings, you don't seeing that it is possible that he fought in wars other than the first battle, whether it is mentioned in the celeborn's in the battles of beleriand or not. I respect your opinion, but in celeborn's own personal story it is implied that celeborn crossed the blue mountains when the wars were over. It is not known whether he left Beleriand before the War of Wrath. Maybe he may have crossed the Blue Mountains before the War of Wrath. However, in Tolkien's story of celeborn, it is absolutely clear that celeborn left Middle-earth in the time period after the nirnaeth arnoediad. So according to Tolkien imagination, it's not true that celeborn wasn't in the wars of beleriand.