Gothmog said:
Barley
I would put it that it is a Fiction based on a Belief which is somewhat different. Yes
Eru is his Version of
God however there are a differences. Eru, except for one legend, does not intervene in
Arda except when asked by
Manwë. Eru has, according to the
Ainulindalë, either set things up - or can change things, so that the final result will be according to his basic design but better. So there is no need for any to try to follow the will of Eru, they can do nothing else.
I saw your post last night Goth, but as we had just gotten back from my father-in-law's 96th(!) birthday party, I didn't have the juice to tackle it. Now we'll see what happens...
The only thing I need to respond to in your first paragraph above is: If everyone's every action is but the will of Eru, then what's the point? Where's free will? The entire creation and all it's
creatures are then no more than wind-up toys set in motion by their Creator — to what end?
Since we are at present discussing a work of fiction it is reasonable to assume that any ‘religion’ in it would be fictional even if based on a genuine belief. Whether religions in the real world are Fictions or not is beyond our ability to prove and outside the scope of this thread and the bounds of the forum.
It is also reasonable to assume that any human concept is a "fiction," in the sense that the human body/mind is incapable of apprehending the true nature of Reality because of its limits. My firm belief is that all religions — to the extent that they claim "divine knowledge," or "divine revelation," are, if not downright "fiction" in the literal sense, then unwarranted conclusions, at least insofar as the nature of the God and afterlife in question are concerned.
Whether religions in the real world are Fictions or not is beyond our ability to prove and outside the scope of this thread and the bounds of the forum. First: whether something is inside or outside the scope of TTF's rules is a blurry concept at best when discussing this topic, especially since it was
invited by one of the mods. Second: Had your sentence completed after the word "prove," I would have been in total agreement with you, because it is a very cogent realization in itself. And there is this: the discussion sparks off ideas in my mind. Am I to censor myself just to keep within the boundaries of a set of rules which seems to be constantly in motion? If so, I shall retire from this thread immediately.
Even if comparing Eru with the Christian God is comparing one fiction with another, so what? It is no different to comparing two similar fictional
novels. I agree that there is the resemblance. However, again, the value of any religion is outside the bounds of TTF.
Why do you devalue my serious response with a "so what"?
You give an interesting view of Christianity’s God but I don’t see the relevance of such a full-scale graphic description.
Hey,
I didn't write the Bible! Please don't hold me responsible simply because I synopsized some of its passages! And the "full-scale graphic descriptions" are
precisely what I wanted to bring out in order to illustrate what happens when you get a God angry who sees his little creatures acting with a mind of their own, even when he's given them free will!
We are here discussing Eru, who, while comparable is not the same. One thing we agree on. Eru is not perfect. Then again, my view on perfection is all over the forum in my sig.
Now
that idea —
that Eru isn't perfect — is remarkable to me. Just how far off
the mark is he? What kind of mistakes does he make? Does he make minor errors only every so often, or is he a major incompetent?
What's the good of a God who isn't perfect and who makes mistakes??! If I were living in
Middle-earth knowing that its creator was
prone to some unknown frequency to err, I would be terrified! Do not people who believe in a God assume him or her to be infallible? Otherwise where does it stop? A circle is perfect because it never changes,
it's dependable — but an OVAL, with infinite shifting degrees of "ovalness" — lemme outa here!
It is not certain that in the case of Eru he did ‘let something slip’ there is also the possibility that
Melkor’s rebellion was part of his plan. And while it may well be a ‘perfect case of anthropomorphic projection’ in the case of a fictional story based on a number of mythological sources I don’t find it very surprising.
Well now you seem to be contradicting your own assertion that Eru was fallible. After all,
whatever happens in his creation, including all of Melkor's shenanigans was in order to "redound" to Eru's glory. Why he needs to do this — why a Perfect Being (which was my assumption until you told me differently) should have needs
at all is beyond me.
I don’t understand your point that
Tolkien has Eru creating a supposedly perfect reality. According to The Ainulindalë Tolkien had Eru and the
Ainur creating a flawed Arda from the beginning. Eru had the chance to change or even scrap it completely and start again. From what I recall, according to Christian belief God created a ‘perfect world’ which became flawed later. However, with all the gods we know of, we only see them through the film of religion.
Part of it is that I have never read
the Silmarillion to great depth, and so you may rightly accuse me of being improperly prepared to discuss this topic.
Othewise, it has been my lifelong assumption that when people think "God" they think
perfection; infallibility. Isn't that the basis of prayer? God can do
anything, and so people supplicate for miracles. I applied that assumption to Eru. And when you say that God created a perfect world which became flawed later, that makes absolutely no sense to me, except as more anthropomorphism. It seems to me that a perfect object created by a perfect being would have, as a part of its perfection, the attribute of
never becoming imperfect.
(ASIDE: I see something going on in Middle-earth that is profoundly different from "real life," something which I think is quite a few notches up on the maturity scale:
No one prays in the traditional sense. People take responsibility for their actions. There is
supplication to known powers —
Saruman,
Sauron,
Theoden, Ellesar, etc. — but nobody's praying to Eru, and Eru doesn't interfere with what he has set loose.)
In LotR and in the Silmarillion, I do not see evidence that Eru requires or wants worship. Indeed the closest that there is to worship is the festivals of thanksgiving by the
Valar and the
Númenóreans. And these seem to be simply their choice not imposed on them.
I concede the point. That was (in my understanding) the purpose of the God seen in the Judaeo/Christian/Islamic religions. But then — why
did Eru create in the first place?
Barley