Evil will evil mar?

[Confusticated]

Might Sauron have eventually rebelled against and defeated Morgoth if the host of the Valar had not?

(See Myth's Transformed)

 

[Ancalagon]

Somehow I don't think he would have ever rebelled against Melkor! Sauron's faithfulness to his master was unwavering throughout the entirity of Melkors reign and even after his departure.

Ever Sauron sought to increase his own dominion over Middle-Earth, but not without seeking to continue the teachings, religious practices and worship given to his own master, Melkor. Consider his forays into the Southern and Eastern realms, extolling the virtues of the false God! This was not exclusive to them either, Numenor suffered the same dellusions, setting up the alter on Menaltarma(?) in worship and sacrifice to Melkor.

The fact remains, whether Melkor was around or not, Sauron allegiance to him was never dimmed, even though he alone sought to rule over Middle-Earth.

It is interesting to note the differences between Melkor and Sauron described in Myths Transformed. Sauron ever sought dominion over the wills of Men, while Melkor sought absolute destruction of all creations of Eru and the Valar. This is significant as Sauron would have continued to maintain a society structure within Arda, himself being supreme over all. Yet, all this with contined worship, praise and sacrifice to Melkor. The essence of his success over the dominion of Men was to continue to widen the chasm between Men and Eru. In this he partly succeeded, though he did not succeed in his overall goal of dominion of their will. Note also his foucs on Men as a race, they were his desired subjects as it was apparent Elves were mainly beyond his reach.

Grond made a particularly excellent case on Saurons behalf somewhere, I will try to dig it out.

 

[Ancalagon]

This link covers some of the same questions regarding Sauron;

http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5498

Actually, that thread had been closed for quite some time, so I have re-opened it.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Nóm
Might Sauron have eventually rebelled against and defeated Morgoth if the host of the Valar had not?

(See Myth's Transformed)

I doubt he had the strength to rebel against Morgoth, the greatest of the Ainur in his beginnings.
Sauron probably continued the Melkor worship because he himself was more powerful under Melkor's dominion and Melkor taught him much and enhanced his powers.

 

[gate7ole]

What you say about Sauron’s allegiance to Morgoth is correct.
But let’s imagine what would happen if the Valar hadn’t assailed Morgoth. He would continue his plan, which was the destruction of everything (including Orcs and other servants). How would Sauron react to that? Would he let his master destroy everything? Was it what he wanted?
Tolkien at the Myths Transformed says that Sauron’s ultimate plan at the Second Age, was to organize perfectly the lives of all, under of course his dominion. Fundamentally different from Morgoth’s nihilism.
Would Sauron stay and watch Morgoth destruct? We can’t know, but definitely I’m not convinced that Sauron would stay loyal until the end. I would vote for his rebel against his master.

 

[Ithrynluin]

You do make a good point, between Morgoth's nihilism and Sauron's wish to have a system under his dominion. But what could a Maia do against a Vala? Could he have enlisted the other Maiar (Balrogs) to join his cause?

 

[Ancalagon]

Yes, a good enough point, but I would need a little more convincing that Sauron would have considered rebelling against his own master. Sauron was and continued to be a faithful disciple of Melkor.

 

[gate7ole]

Well, I don't suggest that he would win. He would probably lose and wouldn't take many Balrogs on his side.

 

[Confusticated]

I believe he would have rebelled, for the reason named by gate7ole, and I am even open to that he might have defeated Morgoth.


Sauron's initial willingness to admit the superiority of another being over himself is referd to as 'the shadow of good' that is mentioned again in this quote:

But it may be doubted whether even such a shadow of good was still sincerely operative in Sauron by that time.

It may be doubted. I do doubt it.

I think Sauron just continued to preach about Morgoth to give him the position as a kind of spokesman for a greater power, and do sway people into forsaking Iluvatar.

Could Sauron or any of Melkor's servants have known Melkor's true mind? I doubt that too. Melkor was a master of hiding his mind. Did they know that Melkor would eventually have destroyed them too? Melkor controlled people with fear of bodily harm, and with false promises. Once his followers see that they will suffer bodily ruin anyhow, and that the promises are false, he then has no means of controlling them. Would Sauron and even Melkor's other minions who had a power of evil to regroup independantly of Morgoth have been dominated to the point of letting let Morgoth destroy them? He eventually would have attempted to destroy his own minions. I do believe that Sauron could have swayed men, dragons, and maybe even orcs to go against Morgoth. Also, the moment that Sauron decided to go against Morgoth he may seek allies in the Noldor and Edain.

But what could a Maia do against a Vala? Could he have enlisted the other Maiar (Balrogs) to join his cause?

Why not? We may argue about how much will orcs have, but Maiar? They would surely fight back when Morgoth of his minions attempt to destory them!

 

[Ancalagon]

Melkor was a master of hiding his mind. Did they know that Melkor would eventually have destroyed them too?

I am a little confused!?!?! Are you saying that Melkor would have destroyed his own servants, such as Sauron, Gothmog or any of those other Maiar who followed him?

I disagree also that Melkor hid his mind, if anything he was blantantly obvious in his destruction of all the Valar had created, he openely wanted to rule over Arda and have it as his kingdom, he expended the bulk of his power in undoing their works and retreated to the depths of his strongholds while his servants carried on his wars. Melkor is truly an open book when it comes to purpose, Sauron it might be said was his one redeeming factor, faithful in evil and subservient to his master.

 

[Ithrynluin]

Please provide a quote where it says that Morgoth's goals were totally and thoroughly nihilistic and that he would have destroyed even his own most powerful servants.

Could Sauron or any of Melkor's servants have known Melkor's true mind? I doubt that too. Melkor was a master of hiding his mind.

He hid his mind from those who clearly opposed him. I believe they did know most of his mind, if not all.

Let's look at something else too - the difference between Morgoth's plans and Sauron's plans as Dark Lords.
It could be that total destruction of life wasn't Sauron's goal, simply because he wasn't nearly powerful enough to achieve this...so why even bother? Try and achieve what is WITHIN your reach. The dominion of Middle Earth clearly was within his reach, but strange chances and circumstances caused his downfall.

 

[Confusticated]

By Ancalagon:

I am a little confused!?!?! Are you saying that Melkor would have destroyed his own servants, such as Sauron, Gothmog or any of those other Maiar who followed him?

Yes.

from Myth's transformed:

This as sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.

and this is said of Morgoth...

...even if left alone he could only have gone raging on till alll was leveled again into a formless chaos. And yet even so he would have been defated, because it would still have 'existed'.independant of his own mind, and a world in potential.

Morgoth would have destroyed the form of everything! His own creatures weren't really his creations, just his alterations.

by ithrynluin:

Please provide a quote where it says that Morgoth's goals were totally and thoroughly nihilistic and that he would have destroyed even his own most powerful servants.

I do not need a quote that says he would have destroyed his own most powerful servants as we have the quote that says he would have destroyed even his 'own' creatures, and a quote that says he would have gone on until all was a formless chaos. This means that the hroa all of creatures would be destroyed.

As for hiding his thoughts...
Sure we know he hid them from Manwe and the Valar, and even though it may have seemed obvious to the elves that Morgoth would destroy everything, I figure the ultimate results of his actions were unknown to the Maiar and creatures that followed him.

The Maiar who took Morgoth as a leader did so because they were rebelious and in him they saw an effective leadership in rebellion. The rebel Maiar had their own purposes and they hoped to get things from Morgoth that would aid them in those purposes.

I can not believe that all the men, and Maiar who followed Morgoth did so because they wanted everything, including themselves to come to ruin. Would minions have followed the leader if they knew that they were being used as weapons against men and elves and nothing more, and that Morgoth would have destroyed them too, once they have served his purpose?

I don't think so, I think they can not have known that they would all be destroyed by Morgoth. When eventually the elves were defeated and Morgoth moved on to destroyeing his armies, a guy like Sauron could take up command of the armies and lead them against Morgoth. He may not succeed in this, but why wouldn't he try?

 

[Ithrynluin]

This as sheer nihilism, and negation its one ultimate object: Morgoth would no doubt, if he had been victorious, have ultimately destroyed even his own 'creatures', such as the Orcs, when they had served his sole purpose in using them: the destruction of Elves and Men.

I do not need a quote that says he would have destroyed his own most powerful servants as we have the quote that says he would have destroyed even his 'own' creatures, and a quote that says he would have gone on until all was a formless chaos. This means that the hroa all of creatures would be destroyed.

The Orcs may be his creatures but not so the Maiar. They are in his allegiance yes, but the Orcs were created by him, or at least horribly corrupted and mutilated by him. They would have no meaning for him, further than serving him as cannon fodder, and even more so since they were Elves in their beginning, whom he hated. For his nihilistic and chaotic nature, it would possibly be a pleasure to destroy them.
The corrupted Maiar were Eru's creations. He could only try to destroy their hroa, but their fear he could not harm (or at least I do not see how he possibly could). But even so, could Morgoth, mightiest though he be, destroy Maiar such as Sauron and the Balrogs (who were powerful "warriors")? I think they would have annihilated him (all of them together, possibly even apart), since much of his native power was wasted and spent into the Earth itself and the domination of it.

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
The Orcs may be his creatures but not so the Maiar. They are in his allegiance yes, but the Orcs were created by him, or at least horribly corrupted and mutilated by him. They would have no meaning for him, further than serving him as cannon fodder, and even more so since they were Elves in their beginning, whom he hated. For his nihilistic and chaotic nature, it would possibly be a pleasure to destroy them.

Darn right it would.
I expect he would have destroyed the bodily forms of his balrogs and other Maiar as well. What purpose would they serve him once everything else's form was ruined? Why would a destructive guy like Morgoth keep them around? As chums?
Remember this quote:

...even if left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos.

Morgoth didn't like anything that came from other minds.Morgoth, just plain didn't like any thing. Till "all" was a "formless chaos"? Sounds to me like this would include all beings, as well as the earth.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
The corrupted Maiar were Eru's creations. He could only try to destroy their hroa, but their fear he could not harm (or at least I do not see how he possibly could).

As I said, he would destroy the hroa... as for fea, he couldn't destroy that of elves or men. Morgoth got to the point where he didn't even worry about the fea... he just wanted to destroy the physical.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
But even so, could Morgoth, mightiest though he be, destroy Maiar such as Sauron and the Balrogs (who were powerful "warriors")? I think they would have annihilated him (all of them together, possibly even apart), since much of his native power was wasted and spent into the Earth itself and the domination of it.

I don't know if he could have destroyed all his Maiar or not. I maintain that they would have rebelled against him. As you just said yourself that they would.

By the way ithrynluin, you kow better than to use fancy terms like cannon fodder when dealing with me!

 

[Ithrynluin]

Darn right it would.
I expect he would have destroyed the bodily forms of his balrogs and other Maiar as well. What purpose would they serve him once everything else's form was ruined? Why would a destructive guy like Morgoth keep them around? As chums?

I don't know if he could have destroyed all his Maiar or not. I maintain that they would have rebelled against him. As you just said yourself that they would.

Yes they would have rebelled against him, if he tried to destroy them. They are evil, not stupid. I am also a firm believer of the fact that Morgoth did not possess the power to destroy even their hroa, because he spent it lavishly for the dominion of Arda.
Remember how he cowered when Fingolfin knocked on the front door of the Iron Prison? How eager would he be to go combating his Maiar then? Hmmm....Not particularly.

Remember this quote: ...even if left alone he could only have gone raging on till all was leveled again into a formless chaos.

Yep we should definitely remember this quote. We should also remember that it says "even", which implies that this is a speculation, a hypothesis on what would happen if he were alone. Do you think that "alone" refers to the possibility that he slew his most powerful servants? Doubtful, very doubtful. I think they might have abandoned him and left.

By the way ithrynluin, you kow better than to use fancy terms like cannon fodder when dealing with me!

 

[Confusticated]

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Yes they would have rebelled against him, if he tried to destroy them. They are evil, not stupid. I am also a firm believer of the fact that Morgoth did not possess the power to destroy even their hroa, because he spent it lavishly for the dominion of Arda.
Remember how he cowered when Fingolfin knocked on the front door of the Iron Prison? How eager would he be to go combating his Maiar then? Hmmm....Not particularly.

I suppose that he would have had his Maiar attack eachother, not him do it himself. But I do think that part of his fear of Fingilfin was due to Fingolfin being a great elf from Aman, not his physical strength and size.

Originally posted by ithrynluin
Yep we should definitely remember this quote. We should also remember that it says "even", which implies that this is a speculation, a hypothesis on what would happen if he were alone. Do you think that "alone" refers to the possibility that he slew his most powerful servants? Doubtful, very doubtful. I think they might have abandoned him and left.

Sure, it is Tolkien's opinion/idea/theory/belief on what Morgoth would have come to if he had not been stopped. Why would I forget that?

Alone refers to him being left unhindered by his enemies.

 

[Goldberry]

But if Morgoth killed all his servants, who would be around to serve him? What's the fun of being lord of all ME with no one to serve, worship and glorify him? Maybe he'd kill all the orcs, because they are lowly, but his Maiar?

 

[Arvedui]

This thread has been moved out of the Guild of Scholar's Hall, and will hopefully be filled with the thoughts of more members.