Forsaken Inn

Ithrynluin said:

There, I've made a whole new clickable category for it under Flotsam and Jetsam.

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Wow! Stop by at the Pony — I've a whole case of proper 1420 for you!

Barley

If there has been one thing haunting TTF from the day i joined (some years ago, by now) it was discussion about politics and religion. The air and tone in which such discussions sometimes were led has caused more than one member to turn his/her back - temporarily or permanently - on this board, me being one of those.

What IMHO made things in that area even worse was and is the lack of clear moderating policy leaving moderators in the awkward position to make certain decisions as they see fit, which resulted - again IMHO - in the fact, that not always the best decisions were made.

I've seen decisions to ban those religious and political topics from TTF come and go, only time will tell if this one will be permanent...

While it is true that this is David Pence's site and that he can proceed with it as he wishes, I was never altogether happy with it - neither with the fact per se, nor with this way to look at things. IMO the true assets of TTF - just like of each and any other discussion board - are the members and their good on topic contributions. And David always seemed to know and regard this fact and thus was willing to listen to what the members had to say - if it was sound and reasonable, that is...

But nothing is more frustrating for a member who makes - or made - quality contributions to a certain site, than having to fear the contributions or - as a worst case assumption - the whole site could be going down the drain just because someone can push a button or two and make it all vanish.

Only part of the members are making contributions just to kill time, out of boredom or vanity and thus don't give a damn if such contributions don't persist. There are at least some members who spend time and energy on their contributions with the intention - or hope - that these contributions will last permanently (as far as this is possible) as an aid, information, encyclopaedic knowledge, food for thought, etc., etc., for others treading a similar path. There are at least some members who don't like to suffer the arbitrariness of decisions made "as they were seen fit" by someone else and such lack of policy...

To make the long story short, personally I don't think that the recent decision regarding politics and religion is enough, heck I'm not even sure it will last (what if the general interest in TTF drops even further than in this post movie times, wouldn't it be possible for someone to come up with the idea to open up more controversial, attention-drawing discussions just to keep the members active?). I always thought - and still do - that this place needs a crystal clear policy and a few hard rules to live by - carved in stone and not subject to the disposition or the sensitivities of any one single person...

But that of course is only my subjective and personal point of view...

Walter said:

If there has been one thing haunting TTF from the day i joined (some years ago, by now) it was discussion about politics and religion. The air and tone in which such discussions sometimes were led has caused more than one member to turn his/her back - temporarily or permanently - on this board, me being one of those.

What IMHO made things in that area even worse was and is the lack of clear moderating policy leaving moderators in the awkward position to make certain decisions as they see fit, which resulted - again IMHO - in the fact, that not always the best decisions were made.

I've seen decisions to ban those religious and political topics from TTF come and go, only time will tell if this one will be permanent...

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At last, someone willing to speak out on this! I know of a number of other Tolkien sites that have always had a legitimate place for the discussion of topics that have nothing to do with Tolkien, subjects that appeal to the "grown-up" side of the clientele — never mind age — are controversial — and by that very token welcomed and valued as a part of the site. They still are. I believe the creation of Project Evil was entirely unnecessary, and even though I greatly appreciate it, I believe that to cut the subject matter discussed there from the main body of TTF is ultimately a poor "solution" to the "problem". I don't even see that a solution was necessary: nothing was wrong in the first place!

...nothing is more frustrating for a member who makes - or made - quality contributions to a certain site, than having to fear the contributions or - as a worst case assumption - the whole site could be going down the drain just because someone can push a button or two and make it all vanish.

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THANK YOU for saying that. That statement certainly represent my feelings and I daresay reflects the sentiments of many of those participating in Project Evil. With no proof whatever, I am of the considered opinion that The Powers That Be caved in to the pressure of a vocal few who are of a conservative nature. Here on TTF, as in the "real world," when the majority gives in to pressure from a loud strident minority who want to force their agenda on everyone, nothing good can come of it.

...There are at least some members who spend time and energy on their contributions with the intention - or hope - that these contributions will last permanently (as far as this is possible) as an aid, information, encyclopaedic knowledge, food for thought, etc., etc., for others treading a similar path. There are at least some members who don't like to suffer the arbitrariness of decisions made "as they were seen fit" by someone else and such lack of policy...

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I often wonder what became of those posts on non-Tolkien subject matter that I spent so much time and energy organizing and thinking about and working over before I put them up as posts. It is a shame that they've been archived. I think it's arbitrary, and I think it's a shame that the decision was made to bifurcate the Tolkien from non-Tolkien subject matter, and to have been banished (that's really what it is, you know) to a side area which no now contains no more than thirty people. Did we really make that much trouble on the main site, or was it just the loud protestations of a certain few who really have no more say in the running of things than anyone else?

To make the long story short, personally I don't think that the recent decision regarding politics and religion is enough, heck I'm not even sure it will last (what if the general interest in TTF drops even further than in this post movie times, wouldn't it be possible for someone to come up with the idea to open up more controversial, attention-drawing discussions just to keep the members active?). I always thought - and still do - that this place needs a crystal clear policy and a few hard rules to live by - carved in stone and not subject to the disposition or the sensitivities of any one single person...

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You put your finger on a new thing that seems to be happening: the general clientele of the main site — now that the adults have been separated out — has gotten much younger, and there is a definite shift in the quality and subject matter of the posts on the main site. As a result I find myself making drastically fewer posts in TTF, and almost all my posting over at Project Evil. I don't know if this is temporary, whether it's the result of the movie fury dissipating, the result of the loud protests of a few, or the result of putting up Project Evil as a place where the older faction goes. Time will tell whether Project Evil needs to be kept separate, or whether IMO reason will prevail and everything that's over there will be properly brought back over here, and the Forsaken Inn reactivated. I certainly hope for the latter. I cannot for the life of me see any reason to forbid controversial subjects on TTF, especially just to please a vocal few.

Barley

Yeah Barliman I'm sure you put tons of thought into copy and pasting all those articles.

I try not to post much of what I would consider quality in the book disussions, and have taken this approach for a few months, I realised it was never appreciated is why. So unless temptation really gets me I stay away.

It seems I have always been nothing but trouble to TTF o ver the last three years, though whats it matter to you Barliman? ...my contributions were no doubt not up to your high standard, and were no doubt not adult enough for you... or any one with such a saddening lack of imagination and original thought.

I'll do the site a favour and leave, as I said I would do long ago... why did I return? Doesn't matter... but you needn't worry it will happen again. I have a feeling that this time I will not miss any aspect of the place, and nor will it miss me.

Woah, woah, woah!
Nom! Unless some of what Barley said was tongue-in-cheek aimed at you specifically, I think you're going slightly over the top. Your posts are very much valued here, and I'd be sorry to lose you. If you find others' posts to be offensive, just don't read them, and be thankful that you don't even know the person. This is a message board, and our skin should be proportionally thick.

Nóm said:

Yeah Barliman I'm sure you put tons of thought into copy and pasting all those articles...It seems I have always been nothing but trouble to TTF o ver the last three years, though whats it matter to you Barliman? ...my contributions were no doubt not up to your high standard, and were no doubt not adult enough for you... or any one with such a saddening lack of imagination and original thought.

I'll do the site a favour and leave, as I said I would do long ago... why did I return? Doesn't matter... but you needn't worry it will happen again. I have a feeling that this time I will not miss any aspect of the place, and nor will it miss me.

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All I can say Nom, is this: I don't know just what it was about my post that you took so personally, but when I wrote it, you were not one of those I had in mind, and you're still not. Stick around!

Barley

I see we have yet another TTF is in trouble of fading away because insert problem here.

Well, let's see (since I'm bored) if I can address some of the assumptions made about my decision to ban political and religious topics on TTF.

For one, I didn't cave in to anybody. In fact, and I think I've said this, the reason I banned political and religious topics, is because they proved to be a constant source of discontent on the site, and after trying several unsuccessful methods to deal with it, I decided to do away with them altogether.

Secondly, the Project Evil site was put up as a lark, and was coincidental to the ban on political and religious topics, but proved to be serendipitous to said decision.

Quickly, Nóm, you've never been a problem here that I'm aware of, and are missed when not here, so calm down.

And good old Walter, I'm so glad that all these years haven't dimmed your discontent with TTF. I can assure you that political and religious topics won't be allowed here again, so you can put that concern to rest.

Also, Walter, I'd love to see any clear cut and stone engraved rules you'd like to suggest for this site. I'm all for any reasonable measures that would further focus this site on Tolkien's works. Please be sure to PM me your suggestions, or feel free to start a public thread to discuss them.

I think it's time we wrap up this discontent over the ban on political and religious discussions. I'm not bringing them back, there are other places you can deliberate these topics anyway, so get over it

dapence said:

...I didn't cave in to anybody. ... the reason I banned political and religious topics, is because they proved to be a constant source of discontent on the site, and after trying several unsuccessful methods to deal with it, I decided to do away with them altogether.

Secondly, the Project Evil site was put up as a lark, and was coincidental to the ban on political and religious topics, but proved to be serendipitous to said decision.

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Thanks for the clarification. And thanks for putting up PE.

Barley

dapence said:

And good old Walter, I'm so glad that all these years haven't dimmed your discontent with TTF. I can assure you that political and religious topics won't be allowed here again, so you can but that concern to rest.

Also, Walter, I'd love to see any clear cut and stone engraved rules you'd like to suggest for this site. I'm all for any reasonable measures that would further focus this site on Tolkien's works. Please be sure to PM me your suggestions, or feel free to start a public thread to discuss them.

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Well, good David, I wish you were being serious and honest with your post, but unfortunately its tone doesn't quite seem to suggest that ... at least not to me.

Yes, we've had that ban before, didn't we? Why should I believe that this time you are being serious to keep it? I mean I've seen quite some decisions of yours come and go...

My main concern was and is the lack of moderating policy, not a lack of rules. I think that a very few rules to live by here would suffice.

Also, I would like to clearify, that my discontent was not with TTF per se, but rather with how certain issues were handled. It just saddens me to see what TTF once was - and still could be - if management and staff had not decided to close their eyes and/or look for excuses rather than to address certain problems seriously.

But that, of course is just my opinion, please feel free to just ignore it...

Walter, this is a very strange method of delineating a list of useful suggestions for me to consider. I must have missed the insult and belittle the Webmaster style of discourse in English class.

Maybe you could dumb it down for me a bit and try again.

David, we have a saying here that goes: "Wie man in den Wald hineinruft, so schallt es heraus" (roughly transl.: 'the way you shout into the forest is the way it comes back').

I am sorry if indeed I misread your previous post, but the way you addressed me did deem me quite belittling, to say the least. Thus I fail to see that how I was addressing you was any more "insulting" or "belittling" than the way you addressed me...

Anyhow, I think I've said enough here ... or already too much...

If you should be seriously interested in hearing/reading my opinion you can still mail me or PM me...

dapence said:

And good old Walter, I'm so glad that all these years haven't dimmed your discontent with TTF. I can assure you that political and religious topics won't be allowed here again, so you can put that concern to rest.

Also, Walter, I'd love to see any clear cut and stone engraved rules you'd like to suggest for this site. I'm all for any reasonable measures that would further focus this site on Tolkien's works. Please be sure to PM me your suggestions, or feel free to start a public thread to discuss them.

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Walter said:

I am sorry if indeed I misread your previous post, but the way you addressed me did deem me quite belittling, to say the least. Thus I fail to see that how I was addressing you was any more "insulting" or "belittling" than the way you addressed me...

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I'd like to know exactly what was belittling or insulting in dapence's rejoinder to you?

Nóm said:

Yeah Barliman I'm sure you put tons of thought into copy and pasting all those articles.

It seems I have always been nothing but trouble to TTF o ver the last three years, though whats it matter to you Barliman? ...my contributions were no doubt not up to your high standard, and were no doubt not adult enough for you... or any one with such a saddening lack of imagination and original thought.

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Hey, dagnabbit, I'm the only person allowed to be despised around here!

I agree with the first line. Go figure?

As for the rest of you lot, I'd venture a guess that the "grouchy old codger" stigma that some of you have probably doesn't help things out. Heck, I don't even look in the book sections anymore. What kept me around here while there was an MERPG was the Forsaken Inn, and now that things have shifted around, the only thing that keeps me here is the RP, and I have ProjEve to satisfy my "serious" moods. Hehe.

Why'd I stop posting about the books? Got bored. Same stuff over and over. Only people that talked about anything remotely new were people that were already decidedly ignoring me for some reason, so after a few attempts to get involved in Tolkien discussion again, I gave up. No motivation when nobody responds to you, I guess *Shrug*.

Anyways...you all fighting probably doesn't help either. Walter is always acting like a <inappropriate comment removed by Ithrynluin> (hehe) and he's always trying his best to push Mr. A-P's buttons. This is nothing new, so why don't we just take it as read and not do it, eh? *nudge nudge*

Ciryaher said:

Anyways...you all fighting probably doesn't help either. Walter is always acting like a <inappropriate comment removed by Ithrynluin> (hehe) and he's always trying his best to push Mr. A-P's buttons. This is nothing new, so why don't we just take it as read and not do it, eh? *nudge nudge*

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Somehow I am grateful for this post...

Ciryaher doesn't surprise me the least bit with it, as he has a long tradition of insulting and offending posts. But IMO the boy is not to blame that he ever so often resorts to some sort of name calling or other insults, and since it is not my place to comment on his education – or a lack thereof – I shall leave it at that.

Nonetheless this post, which by now remained untouched for more than a month, serves best to illustrate my point that this place has no working moderating policy and that the management has made somewhat inadequate choices of moderators at times.

But what did surprise me, however, was to learn that the webmaster not only tolerates such an insult, but even seems to somehow approve of it and evidently seems to see it as "criticism", probably on the same level as the - IMO - constructive criticism I had to offer alongside with my contributions to this place over the years.

To cut the long story short, I do no longer wish to contribute to a place where the management has no objections towards such insults from moderators (or former moderators, I may not be up to date about Ciryaher's current status) and since the webmaster refused to close my account and delete all my posts, I felt inclined to withdraw most of my on-topic (Tolkien- and mythology-related) posts and bid you farewell...

I felt inclined to withdraw most of my on-topic (Tolkien- and mythology-related) posts

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You mean you are going to mess-up those threads by deleting your posts? If that is the case, I think it is rather mean.

Well Walter, I can only apologise for myself for missing that post. This was due to the fact that I had not been closely following the thread for a while. However, I do wonder why nobody at all made use of the "Report Bad Post" button.

I have not edited Cyr's post as to do so would now require also editing yours.