Frodo suicidal at Osgiliath?

[Angband]

I've been trying to understand the Frodo-Nazgul face-off at Osgiliath. Upon first viewing, it made absolutely no sense. What would Frodo's motivation be? And why would the Nazgul fly away without going after the Ring? (because of an arrow from Faramir? Pleeeease...HE CAN'T BE KILLED!!).

Seeing it again, though, the first part became clearer to me. Frodo goes up on the wall to present the Ring to the Nazgul because he has given up. The Ring is straining to be seen, and Frodo can no longer fight its power and the considerable pain/anguish it causes him. Moreover, he has seen what the Ring has done to Gollum, and has become obsessed with the question of whether Gollum can "come back". At Osgiliath, he has this incredible moment of weakness, and decides to give up the Ring, and himself, to the Witch King.

 

[Isenho]

yeah thats basically it i dont know why the Nazgul left after being hit. eh

 

[Ithrynluin]

Originally posted by Angband
I've been trying to understand the Frodo-Nazgul face-off at Osgiliath. Upon first viewing, it made absolutely no sense. What would Frodo's motivation be? And why would the Nazgul fly away without going after the Ring? (because of an arrow from Faramir? Pleeeease...HE CAN'T BE KILLED!!).

The Ringwraiths can be killed, what else befell the Witch King then?
The Nazgul possibly flew away because his steed was in pain from the arrow that hit it and it flew away...momentarily forsaking the Nazgul's orders.

 

[Lúthien Séregon]

That's all true...Frodo was becoming overwhelmed by the Ring's drive to return to the Dark Lord.

 

[ChunkyLover53]

the Nazgul probably was confused with why there was someone reaching out to it...so when the steed flew back, he didn't create a chance to quickly go after Frodo.

 

[aragil]

I think I disagree with Angband. I'm guessing that Frodo's standoff with the Witch King is the same one that occurs in the books at the opening to the chapter "The Stairs of Cirith Ungol";

Even as these thoughts pierced him with dread and held him bound as with a spell, the Rider halted suddenly, right before the entrance of the bridge, and behind him all the host stood still. There was a pause, a dead silence. Maybe it was the Ring that called to the Wraith-lord, and for a moment he was troubled, sensing some other power within his valley. This way and that turned the dark head helmed and crowned with fear, sweeping the shadows with its unseen eyes. Frodo waited, like a bird at the approach of a snake, unable to move. And as he waited, he felt, more urgent than ever before, the command that he should put on the Ring. But great as the pressure was, he felt no inclination now to yield to it. He knew that the Ring would only betray him, and that he had not, even if he put it on, the power to face the Morgul-king – not yet. There was no longer any answer to that command in his own will, dismayed by terror though it was, and he felt only the beating upon him of a great power from outside. It took his hand, and as Frodo watched with his mind, not willing it but in suspense (as if he looked on some old story far away), it moved the hand inch by inch towards the chain upon his neck.

If these indeed the inspiration for the scene in the movie, then I don't think that Frodo was offering the Ring to the Nazgul. He was following the Nazgul's command to put the Ring on. I also don't think this was a voluntary action- he was under the control of the Nazgul. Besides the scenery (Minas Morgul vs. Osgiliath), there is another difference between the Book and the movie on this point- in the book Frodo fights off the urge at the last instant and instead grabs the phial of Galadriel; in the movie of course it is Sam who saves Frodo at the last instant.

 

[lilhobo]

who here thinks that PJ should put them Vietnam war films from scorsese away.....the nazgul appearance looks like a helicopter scene appearing to rescue frodo

 

[Niniel]

I don't think Frodo wanted to give the Ring to the Nazgul. He wanted to put it on, at least he had almost put it on his finger when Sam pulled him away. At first I tought he was trying to defy the Nazgul, that he wanted to show that HE had the Ring and wasn't going to give it to the Enemy, but now I agree with aragil that he might have been following the Nazgul's command.

 

[Phee]

Originally posted by aragil
If these indeed the inspiration for the scene in the movie, then I don't think that Frodo was offering the Ring to the Nazgul. He was following the Nazgul's command to put the Ring on. I also don't think this was a voluntary action- he was under the control of the Nazgul.

That's the way I see that scene as well. Frodo doesn't seem to be in control of his actions IMO. He's walking along in an almost trance-like state, and doesn't even turn around when Sam calls out to him. His actions make perfect sense if you consdier he was under the control of the Nazgul.

 

[Eriol]

Sadly, I disagree with most of you. First of all, Frodo is holding the ring with the five fingers of his left hand. This is an awfully awkward way to put a ring on one of your fingers, try it and you'll know what I mean. Much more natural would be to hold it between thumb and forefinger, if he was trying to put it on.

Also, I don't see the similarity between this scene and the one at Minas Morgul, only a sketchy likeness. In the book we see that Frodo "felt no inclination to yield to it (the command to put the Ring on)". And he watched his hand crawling in the direction of the Ring in a detached manner, "as if he looked on some old story far away". It is as if his hand was being controlled, but himself was free. Compare this with the movie. He goes out and climbs a set of stairs with the 'rolling eyes' on. Can anyone say he was free then? Or that he "felt no inclination to yield to it"?

Perhaps the flaw is in EW's acting and not in the screenplay itself. But as it appeared on the screen, for me at least, it was clear that a) Frodo was completely under the control of the Ring (contrast with book); b) he was offering the Ring to the Nazgûl (and by the way, I don't know why you think he was the Witch-King, unless by analogy with the Minas Morgul scene).

My main beef, of course, is not Frodo's behavior, but the Nazgûl's. Can't he feel the Ring there? Can't he smell a hobbit, even if he does not feel the Ring? (Sauron knows a hobbit is the bearer). Do you really think that a Nazgûl would just fly off in that situation? I think he would dismount (even if it would kill the flying beast -- and obviously it wouldn't, it looks in good shape for flying during Sam's speech) and go after Frodo, while everybody else was panicking. Perhaps Faramir wouldn't, but how would the Nazgûl know that? Do you think he was afraid? I don't think fear, especially of mortal men (mere shadows to them), would be detectable in the Nazgûl.

 

[aragil]

Who cares what his left hand was doing? His RIGHT hand was approaching the ring, with index finger extended, ready to put it on. If you think putting on a ring using all five fingers of your left hand is awkward, then that is where you should take umbrage at EW's acting, IMO.
As for the comparison between the book scene and the movie scene, there are many differences, some large, some small. First of all they're at Osgiliath, not Minas Morgul. Second of all, it's a Nazgul in the air, not on a horse. Third, Sam saves Frodo, rather than Frodo saving Frodo. Finally, Frodo's entire body appears to be under the control of the Nazgul, not just his arm. That being said, I think the underlying story structure is the same- Frodo has a confrontation with a Nazgul who commands that he put on the Ring. Frodo almost does so, but disaster is averted at the last moment.
Nazgul behavior is hard to defend with either the book or the movie. Let's not forget the first Nazgul which finds Frodo in the Shire. That one obviously felt the power of the Ring, with nothing standing between him and the ultimate conquest of evil but a few meters. Yet, after sniffing a few times he hops on his horse and rides off- no Elves, no Faramir, no reason to leave;

The other two ran quickly to the left and down into a little hollow not far from the road. There they lay flat. Frodo hesitated for a second: curiosity or some other feeling was struggling with his desire to hide. The sound of hoofs drew nearer. Just in time he threw himself down in a patch of long grass behind a tree that overshadowed the road. Then he lifted his head and peered cautiously above one of the great roots.
Round the corner came a black horse, no hobbit-pony but a full-sized horse; and on it sat a large man, who seemed to crouch in the saddle, wrapped in a great black cloak and hood, so that only his boots in the high stirrups showed below; his face was shadowed and invisible.
When it reached the tree and was level with Frodo the horse stopped. The riding figure sat quite still with its head bowed, as if listening. From inside the hood came a noise as of someone sniffing to catch an elusive scent; the head turned from side to side of the road.
A sudden unreasoning fear of discovery laid hold of Frodo, and he thought of his Ring. He hardly dared to breathe, and yet the desire to get it out of his pocket became so strong that he began slowly to move his hand. He felt that he had only to slip it on, and then he would be safe. The advice of Gandalf seemed absurd. Bilbo had used the Ring. ‘And I am still in the Shire,’ he thought, as his hand touched the chain on which it hung. At that moment the rider sat up, and shook the reins. The horse stepped forward, walking slowly at first, and then breaking into a quick trot.

How do you explain that?
As for whether or not it was the Witch King in the movie scene, that is not entirely relevant to whether or not the scene was inspired by the book, IMO. Still, when Frodo sees the first Flying Nazgul, he immediately invisions the Witch King. Until the last scene in the movie we only see one Nazgul at a time, so the natural inference would be that it was the Witch King above the Dead Marshes and the Witch King again in Osgiliath. IMO, at least.

 

[Eriol]

Who cares what his left hand was doing?

Well, I do . That gesture is not the one of a guy who is putting the Ring on. I don't know a lot about acting, but this seems (to me) to be the sort of unconscious gesture of one who read in the script something like "Frodo offers the Ring to the Nazgûl". As a matter of fact, an alternative explanation was given by a friend of mine, a non-reader, who was watching it with me: Frodo was pointing at the Ring. Now I find this a little far-fetched, but the whole idea of Frodo leaving a room, climbing some stairs, and waiting for a Nazgûl to show up seems far-fetched too.

As for Nazgûl behavior, we simply are not given enough information to know if they are stupid or just unlucky. The Nazgûl you just mentioned did not know Frodo was close, he was just listening. I don't think he felt the power of the Ring, why do you think that? Just because he stopped to listen? They are not supermen, quite the contrary regarding their senses. But this is somewhat off topic. Nazgûl behavior (and their sensibility to the power of the Ring) deserves a whole thread of it own.

As I said, my friend Aragil, I am sorry to disagree with you. I really am. I would like to be able to interpret this scene like you do. But I simply can't, and I don't know if this is EW's, the script's, or my own fault. But this is my opinion.

As for the inspiration of the scene, I agree with you, it was that scene at Minas Morgul. But it is not the same scene in a different setting. Frodo's behavior is completely different, and of course the Witch-King is never as sure as the Nazgûl in the movie that the Ring is so close.