How come 🧙Saruman never tried to ensnare Denethor and take over Gondor?

[BalrogRingDestroyer]

It doesn't mean he can't try and go for Rohan too, in fact, if he had his own realm of Isengard, the realm of Rohan, and the realm of Gondor on his side, even without the One Ring, he could at least keep Sauron busy long enough to try and take it from the Fellowship. (Truthfully, that was a BIG flaw in Saruman's plans, in that his whole thing seemed to be resting on getting the Ring for himself. I think it would have gone ill for him, even with the control of Rohan and Gondor and the Shire, had he openly defied Sauron.)

Still, both Saruman and Denethor possessed a Palantir, so that would give him even easier access to the Steward. (And Sauron might possibly have not found out, as Denethor wasn't able to eavesdrop on Saruman and Sauron with his Palantir and find out they were allied.)

 

[Laurë]

As a certified non-lore-master, take everything I say with a grain of salt 😅.

That said, my first thought as to why he didn't try to take Gondor was due to location. Rohan is nearby, and sending his armies there is quick and easy. As I recall, he only took the Shire later on because he had to leave Isengard behind (It's been a few years since I read the books though).

Yes, he could've gotten to Denethor through the Palantir, but don't I think corrupting just Denethor would allow him to take Gondor easily.

That and, on just a practical level, it makes sense for him to take one region at a time, slowly moving across the land. Why try to take over Gondor now while he's pre-occupied with Rohan's fall, when he could do it later with bigger territories to fall back to? In the story we can actively see Gondor weakening and falling apart, so it would serve him to wait for them to be easier to take. Going off on that, he may have even thought Gondor was just about to fall to Mordor, and so didn't feel the need to go in to take it himself--Perhaps it seemed already taken care of.

 

[Eldacar]

I am no lore master either, but I am pretty certain that to transmit some form of thought or will and therefore influence from one stone to the other required the will of the users on both sides. Sauron was able to influence Denethor because he actively wanted to communicate with the stone of Minas Ithil. He didn't care for the stone in Orthanc and therefore Saruman wasn't able to yield any influence at a distance, even if he wanted to.

 

[Ent]

Still, both Saruman and Denethor possessed a Palantir

I also believe in the Stone-lore, we read not all stones could speak to all other stones - and only one stone could speak to them all.

In addition, Sauron controlling one, exercised his will over both the others. For Saruman to try to influence Denethor in any way, he would have had to break Sauron's will and control, and wrest his stone solely to his own purposes. Saruman simply didn't have the power to do that. And as we recall, that stone rightfully belonged to Aragorn, who after great struggle was able to do so... so Saruman didn't even have the advantage the 'stone' required of 'rightful ownership.' (I don't know why Tolkien made a point of the stone 'rightfully belonging to Aragorn, but since he did, we need to take it into account somehow.)

Even Gandalf wasn't willing to test his will with the stone.

Besides, Saruman's added mistake is in his arrogance, he felt he could deceive any/everyone, including Sauron. He had deceived all the others in the Council for countless centuries... (except at the last, Gandalf, who was also deceived for a time.)

I think too, there's some hint nobody, even Gandalf, knew Denethor had one, though again, Gandalf began to suspect. Saruman would have had no reason to try to break Sauron's hold, and go seeking another stone.

I suspect @J. Magi's thought extends along the right lines.

Saruman was already controlling Théoden, Rohan was close, Saruman had been scheeming to take it for a long time (note Wormtongue's long presence there), and Saruman only had opportunity to "start small." His armies were certainly no match compared to either Gondor or Sauron's.

I don't think he had a chance to break Gondor in any way - and he knew it. His devices against Rohan were no doubt in cohort with Sauron, trying to help Sauron (while trying to deceive him at the same time) take Gondor without Rohan's influence.

In the event, only Gandalf stood between Saruman and Sauron's devices there.

 

[Aldarion]

In addition to all of the above... who is to say that he didn't try it, and failed? Tolkien quite clearly states that Sauron had no servant with mental powers comparable to those of Saruman or of Denethor... and while Denethor is implied to be weaker than Saruman, we also know that he was actually stone's rightful owner (being a Steward of Gondor) and thus will have gained an advantage in any confrontation.

 

[Eldacar]

I had to check the fact that the rightful owner has an advantage in the Unfinished Tales, and there are two passages that prove to me that Saruman probably couldn't possibly influence Denethor even if he tried.

"Denethor could, after he had acquired the skill, learn much of distant events by the use of the Anor-stone alone, and even after Sauron became aware of his operations he could still do so, as long as he retained the strength to control his Stone to his own purposes, in spite of Sauron's attempt to 'wrench' the Anor-stone always towards himself."

"[...] he [Denethor] began to use the Anor-stone many years before 3019, and earlier than Saruman ventured or thought it useful to use the Stone of Orthanc."

Denethor was strong enough to withstand Sauron for the most part, and he had an advantage in experience using the Palantir. So besides having no real reason to try and ensare Denethor, Saruman arguably neither had the opportunity nor the necessary skill or power to do so. I got to say: I didn't think there was this much to the question when I first read it. That was an excellent one.

 

[Aldarion]

I had to check the fact that the rightful owner has an advantage in the Unfinished Tales, and there are two passages that prove to me that Saruman probably couldn't possibly influence Denethor even if he tried.

"Denethor could, after he had acquired the skill, learn much of distant events by the use of the Anor-stone alone, and even after Sauron became aware of his operations he could still do so, as long as he retained the strength to control his Stone to his own purposes, in spite of Sauron's attempt to 'wrench' the Anor-stone always towards himself."

"[...] he [Denethor] began to use the Anor-stone many years before 3019, and earlier than Saruman ventured or thought it useful to use the Stone of Orthanc."

Denethor was strong enough to withstand Sauron for the most part, and he had an advantage in experience using the Palantir. So besides having no real reason to try and ensare Denethor, Saruman arguably neither had the opportunity nor the necessary skill or power to do so. I got to say: I didn't think there was this much to the question when I first read it. That was an excellent one.

Yep! Those are the passages I was thinking of.

 

[Eldacar]

There is a passage that is even more clear on the advantages of legitimate usage of the Palantiri. But you @Aldarion really got your lore in order.

"In the case of Denethor, the Steward was strengthened, even against Sauron himself, by the fact that the Stones were far more amenable to legitimate users: most of all to true 'Heirs of Elendil' (as Aragorn), but also to one with inherited authority (as Denethor), as compared to Saruman, or Sauron."