Is Tom Bombadill someone who'd get annoying?

Olorgando said:

I'm really waiting for this revelation!
Unlike Galadriel (and Celeborn), JRRT never tried to squash TB back into the Sil. He was writing (sort of) the Silmarillion, not the Sillymarillion.
And I'm extremely skeptical of any attempts by later writers to interpret (much) older writings as premonitions or even prophesy of what these later writers describe ...

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Indeed. This is precisely why I say it's there, but we read over it without making the connection as to how it applies.
"more at 11".

Is Tom Bombadill someone who'd get anoying?​

No.
*sigh* how sad, how dreary.... so many folks just don't see it...
Tom is a very serious person, indeed, most of the time, maybe even all the time.
I'd dearly love to stay in the "penthouse" room for a month or two, really for 12 months, just to experience Tom and Goldberry through all four seasons.
I imagine one would come away with significantly altered views of life, of what is important and what isn't.

Deimos said:

how sad, how dreary.... so many folks just don't see it...

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Well, perhaps when I'm done with my study and have posted what I see, you'll be moved at that point to share some of the rarified heights to which you've attained in understanding him in all his glory.

His origin has been clear to me for some time, and his purpose for being created is obvious. His power is clear, and its source clean. The manner of his handling his domain - that is, his 'sphere of influence' - is also representative of Tolkien's basic foundations and preferences, both in faith and government, which is one of the several 'comments' or 'representations' Tolkien intended with him.

As to the rest, I'm still working on the details.

To step back from my initial comment about his lack of involvement in the needs of Middle-earth at the time of its greatest need, requires a certain depth of theological understanding, and the 'statement' Tolkien intended in that arena. It's a matter again of Faith and Purpose of Creation.

I'm beginning to see now, as Tolkien wove his character into the story, he wove Bombadil in precisely as he wanted to, to reveal the things Tolkien wanted to reveal.

As Gandalf faithfully fulfilled the roles he was sent to fulfill, so did Bombadil.
I was wrong (hasty?) to suggest he should have done more. He certainly COULD have. Much more. Yet it simply was not what he was created and called to do.

I await some explanation from your side, once my summary is presented more fully and with explanation, regarding what you see so many others miss.

We certainly don't want to be a source of dreariness and sadness to you.

"More at 11"

My "lament" as expressed was with my tongue firmly in my cheek. (Are you not familiar with gentle irony?)
Yet, I do think a lot of folks miss the complexity of Tom, seeing only a superficial "silliness".
It is similar to not hearing the counterpoint in a work of music; it may require some (tho' not superhuman) effort to discern it.
And so I will continue to maintain the opinion (more firmly now than previously) that finally one either "gets" Tom or one doesn't.
And that is about as far from my "rarefied heights"🙄 I will deign to descend; you mere mortals 😉 need to step up your game.

Deimos said:

And that is about as far from my "rarefied heights"🙄 I will deign to descend; you mere mortals 😉 need to step up your game.

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Well then. Given we must wallow in our murky waters without the enlightenment with potential to clarify our cloudy vision, here's my plan.

I will complete my study, (which is going to take a little while here), put it all together in what can hopefully be read with understanding, and post it to the RedBook.

Once there, we will have a 'discussion thread' in which we can shred the work, hoping to improve it with the insights gained by following discussion. (Much as was done with my "Ents" before, though I never finalized it into a meaningful essay.... yet.)

Perhaps then we will see some of your additions to our thoughts explained, for our ascent another rung or two on the ladder toward clarity.

You may be saddened, though, to learn I still maintain he COULD have done much more. His knowledge and power were obviously quite well beyond what many other of the creations of Eru held, short of (some few of) the Maiar. (There's an early hint in there for the careful reader.)

HOWEVER... that he stayed on the rails set out for him is far more commendable to his faith than it would have been had he erred, and side-stepped into taking what might SEEM like a 'larger' role, but ultimately would have been a sad mistake. (No Saruman he... his wisdom was greater.)

Anyway, I do look forward to your descent into discussion when the time is ripe.

Hokay. Right-o matey. Roger dodger, over and under.

p.s. - as we read in Sherlock Holmes:
..."is there any point to which you would wish to draw my attention?"
..."to the curious incident of the dog in the night-time."
..."the dog did nothing in the night-time".
..."that was the curious incident".

Coming upon potentially the most unusual looking character described in the story, fitting no other category of being known to them, the hobbits' only reaction when they clapped eyes on him was to cry "Help" and 'run towards him with their hands stretched out.'

One wonders why that was, doesn't one? Hummm. So much more speculation to add.

To the poll question, my answers are:

1. In the "real" world? Yes, probably.
2. In the world of the story? No.

Middle-earth is sprinkled with polders of various kinds: the Shire, of course, but also Rivendell, Lothlorien, the Grey Havens, and others, each protected in their own way -- the more the different polders are associated with imagery from the world of myth, the more the protection takes the form of enchantment. Tom's realm is such a place, and his power is manifested in singing, like the shamanic characters in the Kalevala, "translated" into traditional English nonsense song -- 'Hey dol! merry dol! ring a dong dillo!' and the like.

Beyond the parts clearly marked as "song", through the use of italics and rhythm, his speech could easily be cast as verse:

'Old Grey Willow-man,
he's a mighty singer;
and it's hard for little folk to
escape his cunning mazes.
But Tom had an errand there,
that he dared not hinder.'

The effect of this is to provoke an almost involuntary response, as when you find yourself tapping your toe to music, or more, unable to resist the urge to get up and dance. The hobbits were clearly affected in this way:

The guests became suddenly aware that they were singing merrily, as if it was easier and more natural than talking.

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I hope to "babble" a bit more on this subject in the near future, on a separate thread, but for now, will just say that life in Tom's realm would no more "annoying" than life in Elrond's or Galadriel's would be "boring".

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

Tom's realm is such a place, and his power is manifested in singing

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This IS interesting, is it not? It being the very thing Eru labored and waited so patiently for the Ainur and Maiar to learn how to do together, before he brought to them his Themes to adorn (through song) for creation?

The very things he later declared to "be" ??
And in the end, it will be through the 'song being sung aright' things will be remade?

Curiouser and curiouser.
(Just sayin')

Squint-eyed Southerner said:

...

Beyond the parts clearly marked as "song", through the use of italics and rhythm, his speech could easily be cast as verse:

'Old Grey Willow-man,
he's a mighty singer;
and it's hard for little folk to
escape his cunning mazes.
But Tom had an errand there,
that he dared not hinder.'

The effect of this is to provoke an almost involuntary response, as when you find yourself tapping your toe to music, or more, unable to resist the urge to get up and dance. The hobbits were clearly affected in this way:


....

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I was a wondering if anyone else had noticed this; to wit, that Tom, when not actually singing still spoke in an unrhymed, but stressed verse.
(I hinted at it when I previously mentioned that comprehending Tom's character was like listening for the counterpoint in a musical work.)

Huorn said:

This IS interesting, is it not? It being the very thing Eru labored and waited so patiently for the Ainur and Maiar to learn how to do together, before he brought to them his Themes to adorn (through song) for creation?

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Hm. Might Tom's singing have actually been a part of the Music of the Ainur? 🤔

Olorgando said:

Might Tom's singing have actually been a part of the Music of the Ainur?

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Or, a part of the 3rd theme, and those things within it which were made without their knowledge..! "More at 11".

Olorgando said:

Hm. Might Tom's singing have actually been a part of the Music of the Ainur? 🤔

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Could be...except we only know Eru made Tom at some point; we don't know when that was... pre-Ainulindalë? post-Ainulindalë?
And here's so something to think about: what if Eru brought Tom into being during the Ainulindalë? in the midst of The Music?

Tolkien is silent about Tom's specific place in creation.
Until that unpublished (1964) letter to Prof. Przemysław Mroczkowski turned up, we always thought he was part of Eä ; but he isn't.
So we can speculate about Tom until Mount Doom freezes over 🙄, but we'll never get any closer to figuring out his origins.
Fun to do... but we end the way we begin: in ignorance.

Deimos said:

Until that unpublished (1964) letter to Prof. Przemysław Mroczkowski turned up, we always thought he was part of Eä ; but he isn't.

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Does anyone have a copy of this available?
I keep hearing about it, but have never seen it to validate what's said to be said therein.

Perhaps it will be in the new November edition of Letters... time to put the "letter" and its contents to rest by making it available to all.

Note: I did find a snapshot of it online... still looking. nearly as I can see from his (difficult) scribbling, it doesn't SEEM to contain anything specific about Bombadil. But it's very difficult to make out.

I'll keep looking.

Most of his letters to Mroczkowski appear to be pretty general stuff.

Addiiton: If we're talking about the Jan 20-26 1964 letter to Mroczkowski available online, having expanded it, that one's all about how evil 1963 was for Tolkien, with 1964 starting just as evilly, with the assassination of Kennedy. No mention of anything LoTR or Ea at all.

Must be some other 1964 letter.

I await resolution of the mystery from anyone who can provide.

Deimos said:

Fun to do... but we end the way we begin: in ignorance.

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Indeed. I will explain the reasoning for my own particular 'speculation' (perspective) soon.

But it is just that... one of the multitude of perspectives, and no doubt will incur the usual rousing of alternates, denunciations, accolades, recriminations, and other fare consistent with the Religion of Opinion.

Some few may even remain silent and just nod, recognizing the difference between perspective and opinion.

We shall see what transpires.

Huorn said:

Does anyone have a copy of this available?

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Go HERE.

Deimos said:

Go HERE.

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Thank you.

Deimos said:

Go HERE.

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An interesting read. Thanks again.
I'll go back to Enigma part 1, and the other letter mentioned in Enigma 2 here, cut, paste, and print it all out, and mull them over with relish.

An unusual insertion for a Mroczkowski letter, as those I've looked at so far (admittedly few, and pretty mundane) have been quite worldly oriented, devoid of LoTR content. Yet they seem to have been good acquaintances, and one never knows what that brings forth at any given time.

Yes, yes he would. If I were in a bad mood, I think he would become very annoying! 🤣

Maybe you should change your username to "Old Man Willow"! 😉