But the whole point is that the Round World cosmology barely requires any changes to the Silmarillion!Yeah, I agree, the main problem for me with the latest conception is the compatibility with the rest of the stories and I imagine (don't know) that it might have prevented Tolkien from going ahead. Similar to the stories about the parentage for Gil Galad, changing to Tolkien's latest ideas would have required changes to the Silmarillion, but not as big as the round world change.
The idea of 2 realities would help reconcile the different stories, but would still be a massive undertaking.
But the whole point is that the Round World cosmology barely requires any changes to the Silmarillion!
I disagree here.But the whole point is that the Round World cosmology barely requires any changes to the Silmarillion!
Sorry, but you are entirely missing the point I and Elthir have been making – IMO rather clearly – the whole time. Have you even read my article?I disagree here.
Assuming that the round world cosmology also implies that the sun and the moon always existed.
What was the point of the lamps, or even the trees? I can see the trees as giving a different kind of light, like a divine or magical light, but light itself was already there.
If we remove the lamps, then the destruction of Almaren would need another cause.
There wouldn't be an outer sea where Ulmo resided, there wouldn't be doors of night.
Arien and Tilion wouldn't be needed.
The whole idea of the Sindar and other elves living in Middle Earth under the light of the stars wouldn't be true anymore.
the raise of the moon when Fingolfin set foot in Middle Earth.
The raise of the sun coinciding with the awake of men.
The Valar using the sun to confuse Morgoth.
Aman, before the downfall of Numenor would simply be another continent, like the Americas, that could be reached from both sides. We are only told of the protections the Valar put on the east of the undying lands.
If I weren't lazy and had the Silmarillion in front of me I am sure I would find more differences.
Plus, Christopher Tolkien himself said it, the changes would be too many, too big, I personally consider CT the best JRR Tolkien expert that ever lived (and for good reasons, he was his son after all).
And I must add I haven't found any CT's comment or quote that I disagree with.
I did, but the article focuses mostly in probing that Tolkien never abandoned the idea or a round world, which I never disagreed with. You can even say that it was Tolkien's last thought on the matter.Sorry, but you are entirely missing the point I and Elthir have been making – IMO rather clearly – the whole time. Have you even read my article?
the idea that Arda was round, but set in a way that was flat to those who lived there. Maybe not exactly flat but with limits that they couldn't pass through.t is notable that in this interview both the idea of Aman existing in memory after the Catastrophe and the fact that the world of his legendarium “always had been a vast globe” were confirmed by Tolkien publicly and not in his private writings. As was pointed out to me after the original version of this article was published, the mere mention of the world being “a vast globe” from the beginning does not necessarily contradict the old cosmology, in which the Flat Earth was encircled by Vaiya, the Enfolding Ocean, both from below and from above, which resulted in the spherical shape of the whole world. However, given the rest of the quoted phrase, it seems obvious that the word “world” is used here to refer to the Earth as such with its navigable surface.
No one said the Trees were myths. They were referred to in the Round World texts (even the core ones) many times and undoubtedly continued to exist in them as a real thing. In fact, in text II of Myths Transformed Tolkien even elaborated on their significance (and that of the Silmarils) by introducing a new story about the Holy Light given by Eru to Varda before her entrance into Eä.Again, you can say the lamps and the trees were mere myths
And all of these examples do not prove your point at all and only give me an opportunity to provide precise counterarguments. The Ainulindalë does not mention the late creation of the Sun and Moon in its published version and also has a Round World version explicitly mentioning their pre-historic origin; the wars against Morgoth were either sufficiently described in the Round World texts of Myths Transformed (the First War and the War of the Powers) or took place when the Sun was part of the existing reality anyway (the War of the Jewels); the Great March of the Eldar was in fact most exhaustively (by far!) described in a Round World text from The Nature of Middle-earth; the events in Valinor took place under the Dome of Varda and did not depend on the Sun and Moon at all (except the short period after the death of the Trees which was addressed in the Round World texts of Myths Transformed), and the latest narrative texts of the Quenta Silmarillion describing these events were in fact written with the Round World cosmology in mind and contain a couple of subtle references to it.
No one said the Trees were myths. They were referred to in the Round World texts (even the core ones) many times and undoubtedly continued to exist in them as a real thing. In fact, in text II of Myths Transformed Tolkien even elaborated on their significance (and that of the Silmarils) by introducing a new story about the Holy Light given by Eru to Varda before her entrance into Eä.
As I said, I am not familiar with myths transformed. You are right about the Ainulindale. But the question is, why didn't Christopher Tolkien include those in the published version of the Silmarillion?And all of these examples do not prove your point at all and only give me an opportunity to provide precise counterarguments. The Ainulindalë does not mention the late creation of the Sun and Moon in its published version and also has a Round World version explicitly mentioning their pre-historic origin; the wars against Morgoth were either sufficiently described in the Round World texts of Myths Transformed (the First War and the War of the Powers) or took place when the Sun was part of the existing reality anyway (the War of the Jewels); the Great March of the Eldar was in fact most exhaustively (by far!) described in a Round World text from The Nature of Middle-earth; the events in Valinor took place under the Dome of Varda and did not depend on the Sun and Moon at all (except the short period after the death of the Trees which was addressed in the Round World texts of Myths Transformed), and the latest narrative texts of the Quenta Silmarillion describing these events were in fact written with the Round World cosmology in mind and contain a couple of subtle references to it.
The following is mainly addressed to those who accept the Round World cosmology and the Númenórean transmission of the Silmarillion as part of their view of Tolkien’s world.
What can we do when it comes to collective projects, such as roleplaying games, where people with different views need to find common ground, and those who prefer the Flat World cosmology are in the majority?
This estimation is certainly too pessimistic. Judging by what I have personally seen, there are at least a few dozens scattered across different platforms. I could name 5–9 people, excluding myself, just on one Discord server (of whom 5 argue for the Round World actively). In one of the largest Tolkien-related communities on the most popular Russian social network, the Round World seems to be the consensus among the administrators. (I am one of them, but that was the case even before I joined the team.) Also I recently discovered by accident that my article had been translated into Chinese and made into a video on the Chinese analogue of YouTube without me knowing and apparently by someone whom I do not know.So. . . like three people on Earth? No wait, I know a guy in Norway. Four.
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