Norse Myth and LotR similarities

Alcuin · Oct 9, 2006

Walter said:
The resemblance is close enough for even Tom Shippey to mention it....

I have not read Shippey. Reader’s Companion quotes him as if he were St. Thomas Aquinas. Should I read him, which books, and which one first?

Noldor_returned · Oct 9, 2006

Varokhâr said:
I only said there were some similarities - re-read my post.

And I'm not wrong about Anduril. I know it was re-forged by the elves in Rivendell. So sue me if I didn't please you with my post.

What a bunch of crybabies, all offended over a little connection I drew

I wasn't offended, it's just the connection was small and minute that I think you're wrong. Aragorn, the ultimate protector of Middle-Earth? Please, he may have done a bit, but ultimate implies the only one. Gandalf's role in ME was to protect it.

Varokhâr · Oct 9, 2006

Noldor_returned said:
I wasn't offended, it's just the connection was small and minute that I think you're wrong. Aragorn, the ultimate protector of Middle-Earth? Please, he may have done a bit, but ultimate implies the only one. Gandalf's role in ME was to protect it.

Gandalf did his fair share, yes, but Aragorn was chief of the northern Dunedain. Gandalf did not spend the vast majority of his life in combat, as it seems Aragorn certainly did. And Gandalf had a role as a behind-the-scenes influencer of others; his role was far more Odinic than Thorish. Aragorn bears more of a semblance to Thor than Gandalf.

Walter · Oct 9, 2006

Alcuin said:
I have not read Shippey. Reader’s Companion quotes him as if he were St. Thomas Aquinas. Should I read him, which books, and which one first?

Aquinas and Shippey have quite different approaches and intentions...

The Road to Middle-Earth was the first book about Tolkien I have read and back then it has helped me greatly to gain some understanding about where Tolkien was coming from and what his "sources" and "inspirations" were.

J.R.R. Tolkien - Author of the Century I read much later when I was already familiar with some of Tolkien's sources. Though Shippey's second book about Tolkien covers roughly the same topic as his first, they are rather different to read. While I found the former a great overview of many of Tolkien's sources which furthermore mentions many "parallels" to these, the latter is more refined and takes a more analytical approach to Tolkien's legendarium.

Given how familiar you are with anything Tolkien, the first might contain little you do not already know, whereas the second might be an interesting reading for you nonetheless...

Alcuin · Oct 9, 2006

Walter said:
Given how familiar you are with anything Tolkien, the first might contain little you do not already know, whereas the second might be an interesting reading for you nonetheless...

Thank you for both the information and the compliment. Does Shippey cover sources along the topic of this thread, “Norse Myth and LotR similarities,” in his first book?

Majimaune · Oct 10, 2006

Aragorn was the protector of only the north. He didnt go down south and protect it as well until he became king and then he laid of the north a bit. He wasnt the designated protector as Gandalf was.

Noldor_returned · Oct 10, 2006

Varokhâr said:
Gandalf did his fair share, yes, but Aragorn was chief of the northern Dunedain. Gandalf did not spend the vast majority of his life in combat, as it seems Aragorn certainly did. And Gandalf had a role as a behind-the-scenes influencer of others; his role was far more Odinic than Thorish. Aragorn bears more of a semblance to Thor than Gandalf.

The Dunedain: a small and dwindling race in the North. Aragorn was the chief, and this makes him most like Thor and ultimate protector of Middle-Earth?

Gandalf in battle: Thor didn't spend all his time in battle either. Gandalf had a much more pivotal role. He discovered the secret of the ring, organised the capture of the ring, saved Faramir from the Nazgul, helped with the healing of Frodo, defeated Saruman at Isengard, defeated the Balrog and much more. Sure, he was wise, but he spent a lot of time in battle too. Aragorn may have fought every now and then protecting the Shire. But Gandalf: he faced the Nazgul on Weathertop a few days before Aragorn, fought the orcs in Moria, fought off the wolves on Caradhras, defeated the Balrog, plus fought in every other battle Aragorn did except for Amon Hen. The there was all his battles in the Hobbit. Is it possible he fought more major battles, but a little less?

Do you see what I mean? Thor, although he may have been a protector of the Norse, he had a mighty anger, and Aragorn didn't. There are other differences too.

Varokhâr · Oct 10, 2006

I see what you mean, but it still doesn't invalidate my observation. Again, re-read what I wrote; I never said Thor and Aragorn were identical, just shared the role of mighty protector and wielded a legendary and powerful weapon of Dwarven-make. Aragorn fought more battles but certainly less notable adversaries - yet still, he fought them.

Nor did I say that Gandalf didn't have the more important role, as you seem to imply. Gandalf fought less battles but definitely won those decisive encounters. And, as I said, Gandalf's own role as protector was quite different than Aragorn's. As Aragorn said at the Council of Elrond (in response to Boromir's boasting), that it was not Gondor alone who kept Middle-Earth safe, and though the Dunedain of the North were dwindling in number, their own role in protecting the land was significant.

Majimaune · Oct 10, 2006

Varokhâr said:
As Aragorn said at the Council of Elrond (in response to Boromir's boasting), that it was not Gondor alone who kept Middle-Earth safe, and though the Dunedain of the North were dwindling in number, their own role in protecting the land was significant.

The Dunedain actually did a better job then Gondor. There were less of them and more land to protect. I cannot liken them to anyone/group in myths and I know quite a few.

Varokhâr · Oct 10, 2006

Majimaune said:
The Dunedain actually did a better job then Gondor. There were less of them and more land to protect. I cannot liken them to anyone/group in myths and I know quite a few.

Very true; and while certainly there are no direct comparisons in Tolkien's works to any single individual or group in any body of ancient lore, it is why I drew the Thorish comparison to begin with. Few Dunedain (led by Aragorn) successfully defending against foes from Mordor does have a parallel with the lone Thor successfully defending against Aetin-folk, though of course not a perfect one.

It's not that big a stretch to see a few honest similarities in Norse lore, with which I am also familiar (being a believing Heathen and so forth).

Noldor_returned · Oct 10, 2006

I agree that there are a few similarities, but Aragorn and Thor I disagree. Thor wasn't the only main guy who fought the Aesir, there were a few others such as Njord and Magni. Thor is merely the most known and thus portrayed as mightier.

The fact that Narsil was made by Telchar the dwarf and Thor's hammer was a gift from the dwarves is a coincidence. Thor was neither king, and received the hammer as a gift. Anduril/Narsil was an heirloom of sorts, and would only be carried by the king. Besides, when Aragorn had it, it was Anduril which was put back together by elves from the original pieces of the dwarves work.

Varokhâr · Oct 11, 2006

Noldor_returned said:
I agree that there are a few similarities, but Aragorn and Thor I disagree. Thor wasn't the only main guy who fought the Aesir, there were a few others such as Njord and Magni. Thor is merely the most known and thus portrayed as mightier.

Thor is protrayed as mightier than Njord or his son Magni as part of his nature, not simply because he receives the most press. But that's off-topic. Aragorn wasn't the only one who fought the foes of Middle-earth either - another small similarity.

Noldor_returned said:
The fact that Narsil was made by Telchar the dwarf and Thor's hammer was a gift from the dwarves is a coincidence.

True but irrelevant; the only similarity I pointed out was that both weapons were of Dwarven-make.

Noldor_returned said:
Thor was neither king, and received the hammer as a gift. Anduril/Narsil was an heirloom of sorts, and would only be carried by the king. Besides, when Aragorn had it, it was Anduril which was put back together by elves from the original pieces of the dwarves work.

Thor was no king, true, but that wasn't something I mentioned. The sword borne by Aragorn had a different nature than Mjolnir, but that's also not important. The only thing that is similar is what I originally mentioned - their Dwarven origin.

Majimaune · Oct 12, 2006

Noldor_returned said:
The fact that Narsil was made by Telchar the dwarf and Thor's hammer was a gift from the dwarves is a coincidence.

Are you sure about that (even though I think it is a coincidence as well). Narsil would have been a gift most likely as well so even if it was a coincidence it is still a similarity.

Walter · Oct 12, 2006

Alcuin said:
Does Shippey cover sources along the topic of this thread, “Norse Myth and LotR similarities,” in his first book?

Very much so, but he covers OE and Finnish and other sources as well, along the way. The "origins" of Tolkien's Elves and Dwarves as found in the Germanic & Norse myths (at least in what little has survived Christianisation in certain regions like Iceland) or the similarities of the Aesir with the Ainur (in Tolkiens oldest parts of the legendarium) or the "origin" of Frodo (as in Fróthi) are some things I seem to recall...

Moreover he elaborates on how Tolkien's philological work seems to have sparked his fantasy when for example words of unknown or doubtful origin - once freed of the constraints of scholarship - became creatures in Tolkiens legendarium (ie the Sigelhearwan).

Tolkien himself reveals a lot about that in his essays (e.g. Monsters & Critics, Fairy-Tales or Secret Vice) but by the time I read Shippeys books I had not yet read the essays.

Majimaune · Oct 13, 2006

Walter said:
(at least in what little has survived Christianisation in certain regions like Iceland)

It wasnt me I promise.

To other matters... Who is Lokee?(not sure who to spell it) I cant remember who he is. Is he the messenger of the gods or is he the evil god person?

Varokhâr · Oct 13, 2006

Loki isn't an evil god so much as he is a royal pain in the ass much of the time. He does some evil - and even does some good. It's because of him that Odin's steed Sleipnir was born and Thor's Hammer (among other items) were forged to begin with.

Majimaune · Oct 14, 2006

Right thanks for that, now I remember.

scotsboyuk · Dec 20, 2006

Varokhâr said:
Loki isn't an evil god so much as he is a royal pain in the ass much of the time. He does some evil - and even does some good. It's because of him that Odin's steed Sleipnir was born and Thor's Hammer (among other items) were forged to begin with.

Yes I would agree. Correct me if I am wrong, but wasn't Loki more a force of balance between good and evil?

Majimaune · Dec 20, 2006

Very possibly. Its been awhile sinse I heard any Norse myths.

Noldor_returned · Dec 22, 2006

From what I know of him, he was more just the kinda guy who isn't really evil, but he plays bad tricks and does a few bad things. Kinda like the guy who thinks it's fun to plant banana peels in the hope someone slips over.

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