Norse Myth and LotR similarities

So the guy who laughs at other peoples miusfortune.

He was not only mischievous and a trickster (and here we find some parallels to the early Gandalf), but also responsible for Balder's death. Together with the fact that he is the father of Fenrir, Hel and Jormundgand he can be considered a main cause for the Ragnarok, the doom of the Aesir and the end of the world...

Right. I had never/cannot remember if I heard all that you just said then Walter.

Merry Christmas.

Just how much of Norse mythology comes to us from Christian scholars? As far as I remember back to university it was a sizeable chunk, if not all of it e.g. Sæmundar Edda and Snorri's Edda.

It's such a shame that we don't have more sources from the period itself, rather than sources from later centuries. I was a student of Anglo-Saxon history at university, and the lack of sources in some areas was always such a blow to understanding those people. Having said that, it does add mystery.

That is the problem; considering the authors' background (which was one that was hostile to Pagan myths), the possibility of Heathen legends having been altered is very real.

Varokhâr said:

That is the problem; considering the authors' background (which was one that was hostile to Pagan myths), the possibility of Heathen legends having been altered is very real.

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Indeed, one does wonder at certaina spects of Norse mythology. Odin hanging on the tree, for example, and being pierced by the spear does sound similar to Christ on the Cross.

Now that is a good point...But there's Christian similarities in almost everything if you look at it.

Yes I would agree. The old adage of history being written by the victors would seem to apply.

Yeah nothing is written by the losers of battles, always by the victors.

I wasn't so much thinking of the 'victors of battles' as I was the spread and growth of Christianity at the expense of the pagan beliefs that had previously existed. The centres of scholarship and book manufacturer in the medieval period were Christian monasteries and religious centres. Thus one can expect a Christian bias to accounts of pre-Christian beliefs.

I think christian tampering with pagan legend is a given really. Though quite what this entailed I'm unsure of. I wonder how much Beowulf changed over the years, being an oral poem, from it's pagan roots to the christianised version we have now? Also how much of this was due to the churchmen recording these tales, and how much was due to oral tradition? As the people listening to the stories became christians did the stories change to suit their taste? Or was this change forced upon them by the church? Given the nature of oral tradition I think either way is possible.

Classical mythology from instance has no christian influence, but then all of these tales came from a literate society, although they too had their roots in oral tradition, but been comitted to script long before the church took hold, they were kept 'pure' so to speak. Given how classical literature has been handed down to us, through the medieval churchmen and such, they could have tampered with them had they wished. Of course, it's a different thing in this case, the classical world being something of an ideal to some churchmen. All those Aristoleans in the universities and such.

I guess my point is, if your average viking could carry a slab full of runes in his backpocket, the world would be a better place. Of course that might put pay to all his roving and pillaging, so it would a different place too. I'm guessing it would be quite tricky to throw a woman over your shoulder for a start.

Um... that's about it really.

Indeed; Xian tampering with original texts presents an eternal problem for scholars. I remember the walls I ran into with my initial studies with the Beowulf poem. Gladly, though, most scholars can work around it, but I wonder how much was lost

Turgon said:

Classical mythology from instance has no christian influence, but then all of these tales came from a literate society, although they too had their roots in oral tradition, but been comitted to script long before the church took hold, they were kept 'pure' so to speak.

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If we consider that e.g. the Trojan war took place several centuries before some people (usually referred to as "Homer") wrote the tale down, we cannot - IMHO - rightfully presume that these were tales from a literate society. Of course, IIRC, the period of the Trojan war roughly correlates to the period of Linear B, but the society back then certainly was not literate either. Nor would Linear B have been a suiting tool to write Homerian poems.

Aside from that the "Classical" (="Olympian") mythology was the last stage of a transition of myths which - at least in part - stemmed from periods much (millennia) earlier, the earliest parts (from the then existing matriarchal and matrilinear society) probably being tradited from the late neolithicum.

As to get to my point, IMO "Classical" mythology has undergone quite a radical transition before it was "frozen" by being put to paper, probably even more so than "Germanic" or "Northern" mythology...

I am aware of the oral traditions of the Olympian myths, and of their origins, my point was in regard of christian scholarship, and that is what I mean when I say they were frozen already. But yes, my bad. Greek myth is protean, all myth is protean. Even written myth. With a literate society like the Greeks and Romans for instance, there is also the influence of the most meddlesome of mythmaker, the writer, so even during the golden age of Athens, the myths are undergoing transition as for instance the tragic poets, alter myth to make their own point in there own stories, this goes on even today, we retell myth to mirror our own values or ideas.

Perhaps my post was all nonsense, I do tend to get carried away on various whims. I think my original post was meant to be a question. Were myths changed to make them more acceptable to Christian ideas, that is to say to suit the Church? Or did the change come about to suit a public whose own ideas had been changed by Christianity?

Anyhoo, I think that was my point. Reposting so I don't look quite so ignorant in the face of Walter's scholarship...

Hehe! Nice to see you around Walter!

Turgon said:

Hehe! Nice to see you around Walter!

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Likewise!

Regarding your question whether or not those Christians who wrote down these pagan myths also tinkered with them: Yes they probably did, some more others less, some more subtle others less. After all they had an agenda...

From Snorri's Edda:

1. In the beginning Almighty God created heaven and earth, and all
things that belong to them, and last he made two human beings, from whom
the races are descended (Adam and Eve), and their children multiplied
and spread over all the world. But in the course of time men became
unequal; some were good and right-believing, but many more turned them
after the lusts of the world and heeded not God's laws; and for this
reason God drowned the world in the flood, and all that was quick in the
world, except those who were in the ark with Noah. After the flood of
Noah there lived eight men, who inhabited the world, and from them the
races are descended; and now, as before, they increased and filled the
world, and there were very many men who loved to covet wealth and power,
but turned away from obedience to God, and so much did they do this that
they would not name God. And who could then tell their sons of the
wonderful works of God? So it came to pass that they lost God's name;
and in the wide world the man was not to be found who could tell of his
Maker. But, nevertheless, God gave them earthly-gifts, wealth and
happiness, that should be with them in the world; he also shared wisdom
among them, so that they understood all earthly things, and all kinds
that might be seen in the air and on the earth. This they thought upon,
and wondered at, how it could come to pass that the earth and the beasts
and the birds had the same nature in some things but still were unlike
in manners.

http://www.gutenberg.org/files/18947/18947-8.txt, my Italics

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In this example the author tried to put the pagan myths into context with the christian "truth" (as it was seen) by creating a frame within which the myths could exist without interferring with or violating the christian beliefs through creating an excuse: "the people at the time just didn't - or even: couldn't - know it any better. Thus writer and reader could be content and just read on...

a note on the original subject of the thread... the story of Turin is a near-identical replica of the story of Kullervo in the Finnish epic Kalevala. Down to him marrying his sister and killing himself with a sword when he find this out...

"a note on the original subject of the thread... the story of Turin is a near-identical replica of the story of Kullervo in the Finnish epic Kalevala. Down to him marrying his sister and killing himself with a sword when he find this out..."

You are correct Starflower. However, Kullervo is a much nastier character then Turin was. Turin's only fault was pride. Kullervo had no redeemable characteristics. Also Turin is as much Sigurd and his father Sigmund as he is Kullervo. For example Sigurd's slaying Glaurung is reminiscent of Fafnir, and the trecherous dwarf Regin is very similar to Mim the petty dwarf, and Sigmund having a child through, unknowing on his part, an incestious relationship with his sister is also very reminiscent of Turin. However, to further touch upon how multifaceted and complicated Tolkien's works are; Sigmund could also be seen as Elendil and Aragorn as Sigurd. I mean he did reforge the blade that was broken. Wow! Tolkien really liked to mix everything up now didn't he.