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🧌Orcs vs Goblins

Yes it says so in the Hobbit, now Uruk Hai on the other hand - quick grab your tin helmet and head for the cellar, here they come !!!
 
The following quote from the foreword to The Hobbit sheds some light on this: "[The word 'Orc'] occurs in one or two places but is usually translated goblin (or hobgoblin for the larger kinds)."(Hence the statement above; 'especially the smaller kinds'). This entry concentrates on the goblins of the Grey and Misty Mountains simply because it is these Orcs that Tolkien most frequently refers to by the term 'goblin'.
 
I think that if you look at the history of Tolkien's writings, there are periods where he considered Orcs to be a large variety of goblin. However, by the time of publication of LotR he had decided to use them more or less synonymously.

You may now remove your tin hats.
 
I always assumed that they were the same thing and that the difference in name arose because of differences in languages.

You say Tomayto I say Tomahto
You say Potayto I say Potahto
You say Goblin I say Orc
 
Here's some quotes that might help.
LOTR Prologue 4 Of the Finding of the Ring.
The party was assailed by Orcs in a high pass of the Misty Mountains.......ans so it happened that Bilbo was lost in the black orc-mines....
Appendix A The Stewards
Appendix F Of other races

Hope this helps
Letters #131
Also the Orcs (goblins) and other monsters........
 
I know that in the movies, PJ makes the goblisn slightly more gollumish orcs. He used women and children to play goblins, while he used men to play Orcs. So to PJ, they were different, but i think that they are pretty much the same
 
Not being a linguist I don't know.

But is it possible that because the words are phonetically similar, 'Uruk' is a proper term for 'orc' which is in turn a common usage in the vernacular?

just a thought.
 
Easier

I think 'Goblin' was ued in Hobbit because it was an easier term for the child audience the book was aimed at to relate to.
 
I have a feeling that in The Lord of the Rings that goblin is a slightly more disparaging term than orc.

Otherwise they are indeed used interchangeably.

In the index to The Book of Lost Tales 2 (HoME 2), occurs an entry by Christoper Tolkien: CT’s references are to the phrases “the Orcs and goblins of the hills” and “Moreover he gathered about him a great host of the Orcs, and wandering goblins, ...”

I know I have encountered somewhere a technical term for oratorical differentiation of terms that are identical in meang, but can recall neither the term now nor any examples other than the prejudicial “Indians and savages” where no distinction of meanings is intended.

Pgt posted:
But is it possible that because the words are phonetically similar, 'Uruk' is a proper term for 'orc' which is in turn a common usage in the vernacular?
In The War of the Jewels (HoME 11), “Quendi and Eldar” Appendix C, Elvish name for the Orcs, Tolkien derives all words related to orc from an ancient Eldarin stem *RUKU seemingly originally:
 
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When Tolkien wrote The Hobbit he didn't consider it part of his larger mythology even though he used names from it. He used the name goblins because they were already familiar with them.
 
The word goblin in The Hobbit doesn’t have much relation to the goblins of folklore, more likely to be something like what we would today be more likely to call poltergeists.

The idea of goblins as an ugly subterranean race may have begun with George MacDonald’s The Princess and the Goblin, and Tolkien admitted the influence.

Goblin appears often in his early writings, and in The Hobbit “goblins” ” and Gondolin are already mentioned in connection with the swords fround in the trolls hoard, one of which is Orcrist, translated as ‘Goblin-cleaver’.

So from the beginning the goblins in The Hobbit were the Orcs and goblins of Tolkien’s earlier writing, who in The Hobbit recognized the swords held by Thorin and Gandalf as famous Elvish swords from Gondolin.

That said, obviously Tolkien’s non-use of Orc except in one passage, is best explained by a wish in this book to use a more familiar term.
 
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