📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

Cian · Feb 11, 2002

Originally posted by greypilgrim
i'm sorry, but a shadow cannot cast another shadow, in middle earth or anywhere. the balrog's wings cast the shadow.

Who said cast shadow though? The Balrog was cloaked in darkness, it's shadow reached out like wings or fluffed out?

Beorn · Feb 11, 2002

Originally posted by Pontifex
Taranir: I had posted that post on a different thread, where I believe you were inquiring about the Balrog's wings. I did not ask for it to be moved, but I find that the Moderators seem to enjoy flipping posts idly around the place. There was no reason, Mr. Moderator, to move my post from its original position, most of all because it makes no sense for it to be moved to *this* thread, as I inserted a link to this thread!! Please, the next time you want to move one of my posts, I would be much obliged if you asked for my consent first. *whew*

Just a side note Ponti...I think you posted that on another thread for Balrog Wings, and the two got merged...

Beleg Strongbow · Feb 11, 2002

If they did have wings could he use them? I think not cause he would have not been able 2 practise in the deep places eg. moria,utumno, angband....

Mina Pitcher · Mar 8, 2002

Have you ever even read it????

Try reading "The bridge of Kazad-dum! It clearly states:

And its wings were spread from wall to wall.

So there!

Cian · Mar 8, 2002

"Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness." JRRT RotK

Mormegil · Mar 8, 2002

Balrogs didn't have wings.

Reasons why.....
1) "In the front of that fire came Glaurung the Golden, father of Dragons, in his full might; and in his train were Balrogs."
(The Silmarillion, Of The Ruin Of Beleriand)

Glaurung was not a flying Dragon, so if the Balrogs were in his train that means that they were walking.
Why walk if you have wings??

2) "the duel of Glorfindel with the Balrog upon a pinnacle of rock in that high place; and both fell to ruin in the abyss."
(The Silmarillion, Of Tuor And The Fall Of Gondolin)

If Balrogs had wings, why didn't the Balrog just fly and leave Glorfindel to fall into the abyss alone??

3) "And the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings"
(The Fellowship of The Ring, The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum)

Balrogs were cloaked in darkness. This particular Balrog's shadow stretched out LIKE wings.

The next quote,
"and it's wings were spread from wall to wall"
(The Fellowship Of The Ring, The Bridge of Khazad-Dum)
Refers to the aforementioned 'wings' of shadow.

4) "With a terrible cry the Balrog fell foreward, and its shadow plunged down and vanished"
(The Fellowship Of The Ring, The Bridge Of Khazad-Dum)

Again, if Balrogs had wings, why did this Balrog fall, why didn't it use it's wings to fly back to a safe ledge or something??

5) Overall, the only thing that suggests that Balrogs had wings is the "its wings were spread from wall to wall" quote. but this can be ruled out by the referance, about twelve lines before, to the Balrog's wings of shadow.
There is far more evidence that Balrogs do not have wings.

So, in conclusion, Balrogs do not have wings.

Ithrynluin · Jun 19, 2002

This is a very troublesome topic. I personally think they did have wings. Tolkien is very ambiguous in many of his texts,though I think he said in one of his letters that balrogs were wingless.
I guess it's up to you to decide.
I'll be back with a quote.

Cian · Jun 19, 2002

Tolkien eventually wrote that his Balrogs were "cloaked in darkness". And I note:

"Over the land there lies a long shadow,
westward reaching wings of darkness." JRRT RotK

Hmmm, a long shadow is here described as "reaching wings" of darkness ... and in FotR the shadow about the Balrog "reached" out like (vast!) wings ...

... nope, haven't made my mind up yet

Lantarion · Jun 19, 2002

Oh noo, not this again. It's not that the question isn't good, on the contrary, but it has always been a subject of great disagreement.
Anyway, I think that all Balrogs had wings in the form of sinews created by shadows and darkness. So not really wings in the sense of flying devices, but in a very effective scarer-offer of troublesome little things like Istari and Elves and such.
But they're still wings, IMHO.

Ingo · Jun 19, 2002

ok...mabye someone said the but if the bolrog did have wings couldnt it had flown up instead of falling down the casm and it wouldnt of had to use the long stair case to climb back up

Theoden · Jun 21, 2002

I don't think they do because the one fell at Kaza Dum... if he had wings, would he not have flown?

-me

Lantarion · Jun 21, 2002

Ingo and Theoden, would you please at least attempt to read the previous posts? You would find that your question is already 'answered', in the form of another person's opinion. I would quote the answer but I won't.
Instead I'll tell you: the Balrog had just been caught by surprise, and didn't really have time to react; he could have flown out before he hit the water at the bottom, but Gandalf was flogging the poor beast with his sword the whole time. And it can't be very easy to take off and fly out of water, so that answers why he ran up the passages and stairs.
This is all supposing that the Balrog actually has working, muscular wings, so don't shoot me down just yet.
It is just MHO, however, that the Balrog's wings were composed solely of ethereal and fiery essense, instead of muscles, tendons and bone.

Elu Thingol · Jun 21, 2002

Ok I have just looked at this thread, so if my arguments already been brought up please tell me. Many have been saying that there is no evidence whatsoever in the Sil that Balrogs had wings. However I found this quote:

and now swiftly they arose, and passing over Hithlum they came to Lammoth as a tempest of fire.

I take 'passing over' to mean that they may have been flying. He could have said 'passing through'.

PS: I will be gone a couple of weeks so will not be able to respond

Cian · Jun 21, 2002

There are plenty of examples of "over" that do not mean "flying over" however -- the riders pursuing the Balchoth "over the fields of Calenardhon" for one, where Tolkien could have written "through" here as well. Even another with Hithlum involved.

" ... and ere the winter was come he sent great strength over Hithlum and Nivrost, ..."

That's a descrip of an assault by Morgoth's forces from The Grey Annals

I do not think that Tolkien was 'revealing' something about Balrogs and flight here with this usage, ie usage that can easily be applied with non-flying things.

CyberGhostface · Jun 22, 2002

I think they have wings.

HelplessModAddi · Jun 24, 2002

In my opinion, Balrogs have long, thin membranes of shadow that they can either wrap up around themselves, making them appear larger and/or scarier, or extend from themeselves, creating an appearance of wings.

Take it one way, its a mysterious blot of darkness.

Take it another way, its a pair of wings.

Take it another way, its a veil of shadow, concealing what is behind.

In the movie, the Balrog seemed to be an enourmous fiery minotaur creature. However, I do not remember wings. I personally never knew what to believe, but I just didn't picture Balrogs with wings.

Elfarmari · Jun 24, 2002

Originally posted by Pontifex
It is just MHO, however, that the Balrog's wings were composed solely of ethereal and fiery essense, instead of muscles, tendons and bone.

I agree totally. IMHO, it would be odd to have balrogs fall to their death so often if they had working wings. I think this is just one of those things where Tolkien was not very explicit, and therefore we can think whatever we want!

Chymaera · Jun 29, 2002

Some Balrogs had wings and flew
Some Balrogs and wings and did not fly
And some Balrogs never had wings

NOW we can end this thread

why all the fuss?

Beorn · Jun 30, 2002

What it was could not be seen: it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form, of man-shape maybe, yet greater; and a power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it.

The Balrog reached the bridge. Gandalf stood in the middle of the span, leaning on the staff in his left hand, but in his other hand Glamdring gleamed, cold and white. His enemy halted again, facing him, and the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. It raised the whip, and the thongs whined and cracked. Fire came from its nostrils. But Gandalf stood firm.
`You cannot pass,' he said. The orcs stood still, and a dead silence fell. `I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. You cannot pass. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udûn. Go back to the Shadow! You cannot pass.'
The Balrog made no answer. The fire in it seemed to die, but the darkness grew. It stepped forward slowly on to the bridge, and suddenly it drew itself up to a great height, and its wings were spread from wall to wall; but still Gandalf could be seen, glimmering in the gloom; he seemed small, and altogether alone: gray and bent, like a wizened tree before the onset of a storm.

I'm surprised no one has pointed this out...It says first that it was like a great shadow....Then, it says the shadow was like wings, not that the wings were like a shadow...Just as a bird can use its wings to cover something...The shadow was like that bird's wings, and was covering the man-shape...

So, there is nothing saying that the wings didn't exist, only saying that they did....

Beorn · Jun 30, 2002

Wouldn't that be Malbeth? What is being said is that anything can take on the shape of wings.

What I was saying is that the wings were not shadows, the shadows had taken shape of wings....

That quote actually does support my idea. My idea is simply that the word wings can be anything, and that winglike shadows are not shadowlike wings.

📊Poll: Do Balrogs have wings?

Do Balrogs have wings?

Yes

No

Maybe (Wing agnostic)

sylvan madman

In the shadows

Superior Elf

New Member

sylvan madman

Mormegil

Guest

seeker of solace

sylvan madman

no house

New Member

Ruler of Rohan

no house

Lord of the Sindar

sylvan madman

Gunslinger

New Member

Tingilindë

Doorwarden

In the shadows

In the shadows

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