scotsboyuk
Vitr Alfr
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2004
- Messages
- 183
Eledhwen said:Not everything that happens is the will of Eru, but 'Oft evil will evil mar'. Melkor sought to sing his own creation song, but Illuvatar pointed out "And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory." This did not mean that what Melkor did was OK, but that the creation he marred would now be capable of greater things because its inhabitants must now also be overcomers.
Snaga said:...I ... find it annoying that people want to tie Tolkien to their own agenda, while trying to ignore the parts of their agenda they don't like. How many conservatives would agree with Tolkiens deep environmentalism?
Snaga said:... Tolkien doesn't address the desirability of a monarchy versus other more democratic forms of rule. He only suggests its better to have a good ruler than a bad one!
Greenwood said:...I always found it amusing in the 1960's (and since) that some "critics" contended that a book [LOTR] by such a devout Catholic was in fact a disguised homosexual story. It always seemed to me that that contention spoke volumes about the people making it, rather than saying anything about LOTR.
Snaga said:I think it would be a disservice to Tolkien to say it is straightforwardly conservative or liberal. Real people do not often align neatly in all their views to a single political pole, and Tolkien did not. I think trying to hard to force this debate into the book is unhelpful: Tolkien doesn't address the desirability of a monarchy versus other more democratic forms of rule. He only suggests its better to have a good ruler than a bad one! What does the book say about the role of women? Is Eowyn a role model for emancipated women? Or is Arwen a better role model? Or is Tolkien actually just showing that there are different women in the world, without explicit comment?
On balance, I am well aware that Tolkien is much more conservative than I am. I can find many pointers to that in the book if I want to. Personally, that doesn't make me feel I need to agree with him. He was a fine writer, not a politician. I also find it annoying that people want to tie Tolkien to their own agenda, while trying to ignore the parts of their agenda they don't like. How many conservatives would agree with Tolkiens deep environmentalism?
Eledhwen said:By the time he wrote LotR he had lived long and seen mistakes on both sides. In the portrayal of the allies against Mordor, his work was not only Catholic (his words) but catholic.
scotsboyuk said:How so? The battle between the forces of Man and Mordor has more in common with the political reality of WWII than it does with any single religion. I am loathe to draw even this comparison because it is not entirely applicable to LOTR.
... that takes care of Catholic. 'catholic' simply means 'including a wide variety of things' (from Gk 'Katholikos' - universal)JRR Tolkien to Fr Robert Murray SJ:- The Lord of The Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
JRR Tolkien to Fr Robert Murray SJ:- The Lord of The Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like 'religion', to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism.
scotsboyuk said:...I choose to follow Tolkien's advice and enjoy the story.
Because you don't get to vote for a monarch!scotsboyuk said:Why is a monrchy necessarily undemocratic?
I wasn't really saying that. I just don't like it when people falsely attribute to Tolkien (or anyone else) an agenda they have created themselves.Hobbit-GalRosie said:I agree with you about it being better just to let Tolkien's tale be a tale, all polotics aside.
Snaga said:Because you don't get to vote for a monarch!
She cannot, and it is not.Snaga said:....in theory, the queen can dismiss a government on a whim....this outrageous power. But it is still there.
Snaga said:We in Britain have a constitutional monarchy. It allows us to vote on some matters, but not others. In particular, we don't have an elected head of state. Does it matter? Perhaps not, you might think. On a day to day basis, it appears to make little difference, since an elected government makes key decisions and the queen doesn't. But in theory, the queen can dismiss a government on a whim, which would be wholly undemocratic. I suppose it is part of the constitutional settlement between the monarchy and parliament that she doesn't use this outrageous power. But it is still there.
Worse, I believe, is the corrosive power of deference, nostalgia and pomposity that often pervades the public life of Britain - this is the worst effect of a monarchy.
The government itself is not exactly democratic. The British people cannot vote for the Prime MInister, we can only vote for MPs who can then choose the leader of their party who may become Prime Minister. The government is also more akin to an elected dictatorship in that it has the ability to pass any law it wishes without fear of it being blocked by the Lords. As mentioned above the only real check on the government's power is the ability of the monarch to block legislation e.g. if the government were to pass a Bill banning elections and used a sufficiently large majority and the Parliament Act to pass it then the Queen would be the only one with the legal ability to stop it becoming law.
In fact, one finds that the upper class and the working class actually get on rather well, it is usually the middle class who cause the problems by trying to be upwardly mobile and look down upon others or fashionably working class and scornful of anything that may mark them out a snon-working class or 'of the people'.
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