Rings of Power Stuff

Barrow Wight · Jun 5, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
That's what I was thinking.

In one sense, yes---but Melkor & Co. weren't thrown out of heaven by Iluvatar for "rebelling;" they left of their own accord to go cause trouble in the physical world of Arda. There is no analog to a spiritual "hell" in Tolkein's works, is there?---Sauron, Balrogs, Ungoliant, et al., didn't flit back and forth from a spiritual "underworld" to the physical world; once they manifested as physical beings, they were stuck "here," weren't they (unlike Satan and his legions of other fallen angels)?
In any event, there is no way "in hell" Amazon's ROP could address issues like this with any subtlety or credibility, because their writers are inept.

Olorgando · Jun 5, 2023

Barrow Wight said:
... could address issues like this with any subtlety or credibility, ...

I wouldn't limit that to RoP. We're in fantasy blockbuster territory here, a genre in whose "dictionary" the term subtlety does not exist.

d4rk3lf · Jun 5, 2023

Olorgando said:
PJ had toyed with the Idea of having Sauron appear in person at the Black Gate in RoTK, in his Annatar guise, and had actually filmed it, as can be seen in the Extended Edition "appendices". But he decided not to use it, as he had decided to dump "Xena Arwen" in TT as probably causing too much of an uproar.

Yup
As if Aragorn's "For Frodo" was not bad enough.

Erestor Arcamen · Jun 5, 2023

Olorgando said:
PJ had toyed with the Idea of having Sauron appear in person at the Black Gate in RoTK, in his Annatar guise, and had actually filmed it, as can be seen in the Extended Edition "appendices". But he decided not to use it, as he had decided to dump "Xena Arwen" in TT as probably causing too much of an uproar.

Yup 🤮

Squint-eyed Southerner · Jun 5, 2023

One eyeroll isn't enough.
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

And a few more:
🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄🙄

Halasían · Jun 6, 2023

d4rk3lf · Jun 6, 2023

It would be even cooler if PJ made Aragorn completely kill Sauron, before Frodo (Gollum) tosses the ring into a fire, so the whole quest becomes pointless, and he laugh in the face of the people who watched 10 hours of LOTR.

CheriptheRipper · Jun 6, 2023

Barrow Wight said:
There is no analog to a spiritual "hell" in Tolkein's works, is there?-

I thought that was the Halls of Mandos. Because no-one can leave of their own accord.
Mostly just a one way trip though I guess.

Vorondil · Jun 6, 2023

CheriptheRipper said:
I thought that was the Halls of Mandos. Because no-one can leave of their own accord.
Mostly just a one way trip though I guess.

The halls of Mandos is were all elves go, whether they where good or evil.

Ent · Jun 6, 2023

Indeed, he was a very "attractive and beguiling" figure, at least in his abilities to seem wise, knowledgeable, beneficient, compassionate, caring and cooperative... when it suited his purposes.
He had to be, to continually drag men, elves and others into his wiles to achieve his ends. It was only later he could no longer take such forms, as he sank into the darkness.

Ent · Jun 6, 2023

@Barrow Wight -
In the Catholic/Christian view, "Hell" is eternal separation from God. (and more, of course.)
In Tolkien's creation, I believe this is what he refers to when he speaks of "being cast into the outer darkness". Essentially perhaps, a "forever separation from the light of Eru and his (ultimately remade) creation."

Ent · Jun 6, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
all elves go,

Just Elves? Ent is currently doing a little work on Halls of Mandos... it's a bit ethereal to him. (pun intended😁)
Ent thought it was a bit broader than just elves.
Where did Gandalf go, when he died and wandered "for time out of mind" (time having no existence or application in the Halls of Mandos of course) before he "was sent back to complete his mission" ?? Was that not also the Halls? (He did not come back of his own accord..!)

(Ent has a LONG way to go here.)

Vorondil · Jun 6, 2023

Ent said:
Just Elves? Ent is currently doing a little work on Halls of Mandos... it's a bit ethereal to him. (pun intended😁)
Ent thought it was a bit broader than just elves.
Where did Gandalf go, when he died and wandered "for time out of mind" (time having no existence or application in the Halls of Mandos of course) before he "was sent back to complete his mission" ?? Was that not also the Halls? (He did not come back of his own accord..!)

(Ent has a LONG way to go here.)

I hadn't thought of Maiar going to the halls.

Ent · Jun 6, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
I hadn't thought of Maiar going to the halls.

As it turns out, so were the Ainur/Valar. Melkor was chained and placed there for three ages, we must remember.
And it is said Sauron refused to come sit in judgment for his crimes, which he knew would involve imprisonment in the Halls of Mandos for many Ages.

An interesting study is what happens to the Elves and Men (and Dwarves if they go there - a questionable matter) at the End. The Elves' direction is known. for the Men it seems not to be. And for the Dwarves...whether they even reach the Halls is questionable.

CheriptheRipper · Jun 6, 2023

Aethelwulf said:
I hadn't thought of Maiar going to the halls.

Men as well. Shortly apparently. I think I saw something for dwarves as well but I'll look up a source for you @Ent

Edit: Beren comes to mind.

Ent · Jun 6, 2023

We must be cautious as this is a RoP thread.
We should find another thread for a continuation.

Deimos · Jun 6, 2023

Ya think mebbe they will try the "sympathy for the 'misunderstood' Sauron" angle?
Because that is what I think...whitewash time.
(But since I will never watch it, it really doesn't matter to me what they do to him or with him....)

Ent · Jun 6, 2023

Deimos said:
Ya think mebbe they will try the "sympathy for the 'misunderstood' Sauron" angle?

Ent doesn't. (Perhaps solely out of severe hope.) Ent thinks they'll just show him as the 'glamor guy' he was to gain the Elves' confidence, 'help them' with their ring lore, and all such we know he did through the ages, as long as it suited him to 'appear as an angel of light.' this would be very consistent with Tolkien's themes.

Having said that... should your thoughts turn out to be the case, well... Ent will struggle to continue to 'enjoy it for what it is' rather than for 'what it isn't'. (Though the difficulty in doing so will have increased.)

Barrow Wight · Jun 6, 2023

Erestor Arcamen said:
Yup 🤮

Didn't Sauron lose the ability to appear in "fair form" after the downfall of Numenor? Maybe this apparition-type of appearance doesn't count as a physical appearance, but it nevertheless strikes me as inconsistent with the 2nd Age story. At least PJ had the good sense to ditch this idea. Not sure the final version was that much better, but this would have been ridiculous.

Barrow Wight · Jun 6, 2023

Ent said:
Ent doesn't. (Perhaps solely out of severe hope.) Ent thinks they'll just show him as the 'glamor guy' he was to gain the Elves' confidence, 'help them' with their ring lore, and all such we know he did through the ages, as long as it suited him to 'appear as an angel of light.' this would be very consistent with Tolkien's themes.

Having said that... should your thoughts turn out to be the case, well... Ent will struggle to continue to 'enjoy it for what it is' rather than for 'what it isn't'. (Though the difficulty in doing so will have increased.)

Your ideas are probably better than anything the RoP writers will come up with. Haven't they already written themselves into a corner insofar as this aspect of Sauron is concerned?----Hasn't he already done his Anatar thing with Celebrimbor and tainted the rings? Why would he be going back to Eregion as Anatar at this point? [I admit I didn't follow the last couple of episodes very carefully, so I don't know for sure that all the rings have been forged, but I seem to recall the 3 eleven rings being shown---after Anatar had explained the profound concept of mixing metals to Celebrimbor.]

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