Rings of Power Stuff

We can but wait and see. Whatever it is, Ent is looking forward to the 2nd season... but not in the least looking forward to the ire it will unquestionably incite, while we all go through another severe period of complaint, accusation, demand for retribution, coverage of how terrible it is such things can be done to Tolkien and his work, how lawsuit should be filed, etc. etc. etc.

One round of the riotous is never enough, you know. History always repeats itself. 😁

But at the end of the day, the situation remains the same.

Barrow Wight said:

lose the ability to appear in "fair form"

Click to expand...

Ent will need to do a little research on time, times and timing here. Pondering in progress, patience requested.

@Barrow Wight -
Here is one reference from SIL helping our work...
"Annatar ‘Lord of Gifts’, name given to himself by Sauron in the Second Age, in that time when he appeared in a fair form among the Eldar who remained in Middle-earth.

So at least during some parts of the Second Age he remained able to assume 'fair form'.

More later...

@Barrow Wight - oh and p.s. - Ent does not believe Sauron "took shape" in any kind of an 'apparition' form, but was again able to take physical form. Though by that time, no doubt like Melkor, who lost his ability to assume any kind of 'fair form' and remained stuck in the horrid form he had assumed at the last.

This was due to his having passed so much of his power into controlling all his vassals... which Sauron also did.

We must remember Tolkien wrote 'towards his end Sauron had greater power than Melkor' or something close to that, in one of his letters, as one of the TTF scholars here fairly recently pointed out - in one of his letters Ent thinks, though Ent can't remember the number or find it in search yet.

Ent said:

@Barrow Wight - oh and p.s. - Ent does not believe Sauron "took shape" in any kind of an 'apparition' form, but was again able to take physical form. Though by that time, no doubt like Melkor, who lost his ability to assume any kind of 'fair form' and remained stuck in the horrid form he had assumed at the last.

This was due to his having passed so much of his power into controlling all his vassals... which Sauron also did.

We must remember Tolkien wrote 'towards his end Sauron had greater power than Melkor' or something close to that, in one of his letters, as one of the TTF scholars here fairly recently pointed out - in one of his letters Ent thinks, though Ent can't remember the number or find it in search yet.

Click to expand...

You're probably right about Sauron not appearing as an apparition in the 2nd or 3rd Ages. I was referring only to the PJ movie clip above, not to the actual Tolkein lore.

Oh sorry. Kind of, so was I. I thought there was a question as to whether Sauron could appear "in fair form" in the 2nd age based on what we knew about him during the 2nd age and his demise there, losing the ability to reappear "in fair form."

He could appear 'in fair form" then. He did not lose 'the greater of his power' through destruction of the Ring. It is said he "was taking shape again". Given his armor in PJ's film, we have no clue what 'form' he's in, but his armor certainly isn't 'fair'.

But we know he could still 'take form' during the 3rd age, as Gandalf had declared at the Council.

And, if we press the matter a teensy more, we have no idea (really) whether he is "in form" at all, or "a wraith" similar to the Kings of Men... only that he's 'clothed in armor.'

Ent feels PJ has thorough justification for picturing Sauron in battle garb as shown in the clip. Especially as he is not shown as becoming a wraith-waif until after the Ring passes in the mountain.

there... that summarizes all Ent's thoughts on the matter, for whatever they're worth.

Sauron's 'taking shape' is very different than the wraiths of "Mortal Men" who, to have any 'form' at all, needed to be somehow 'clothed'. Very different languages are used.

but Ent babbles. On we go.

Ent said:

Oh sorry. Kind of, so was I. I thought there was a question as to whether Sauron could appear "in fair form" in the 2nd age based on what we knew about him during the 2nd age and his demise there, losing the ability to reappear "in fair form."

He could appear 'in fair form" then. He did not lose 'the greater of his power' through destruction of the Ring. It is said he "was taking shape again". Given his armor in PJ's film, we have no clue what 'form' he's in, but his armor certainly isn't 'fair'.

But we know he could still 'take form' during the 3rd age, as Gandalf had declared at the Council.

And, if we press the matter a teensy more, we have no idea (really) whether he is "in form" at all, or "a wraith" similar to the Kings of Men... only that he's 'clothed in armor.'

Ent feels PJ has thorough justification for picturing Sauron in battle garb as shown in the clip. Especially as he is not shown as becoming a wraith-waif until after the Ring passes in the mountain.

there... that summarizes all Ent's thoughts on the matter, for whatever they're worth.

Sauron's 'taking shape' is very different than the wraiths of "Mortal Men" who, to have any 'form' at all, needed to be somehow 'clothed'. Very different languages are used.

but Ent babbles. On we go.

Click to expand...

Actually, there IS still a question as to whether or not Sauron could appear in a "fair form" (as he does right at the start of his appearance in the PJ clip, before he is shown in his armor) after he "survived" the sinking of Numenor. He certainly could appear in a physical form after Numenor, as he did when fighting Elendil and Gil Galad in Mordor. Was that physical form fair/Annatar-ish or demon-esque (think Gollum reminiscing about Sauron's black hand, burning with intense heat)?

Appendix A, "Annals of the Kings and Rulers", I "The Númenórean Kings", (i) "Númenor", next-to-last paragraph, after the destruction of Númenor:

"{Sauron} was unable ever again to assume a form that seemed fair to men, but became black and hideous, and his power thereafter was through terror alone."

EDIT: so no, there is no more question, the answer is no.

OK just keep at it, Ent is getting there.

That whispy wraithy thing that looks most like a female having looked at it from several 'pause stops' now), as so many seem wont to make male Elves, Maiar and even Valar to appear.

Thanks for Appendix A @Olorgando.

PJ does not have 'justification' for proselytizing Sauron into the 'fair form' side of things in that scene.
So it joins the very lengthy list of other 'stuff' he did indicating he had and still has very little understanding of Tolkien's actual work, much less a grasp of Tolkien's foundation and intent for his epic.

We already have him in the 'he created a spectacle, not an epic' column anyway. Good to know the leopard's spots haven't changed as we go into anything else he does.

Ent said:

Just Elves? Ent is currently doing a little work on Halls of Mandos... it's a bit ethereal to him. (pun intended😁)
Ent thought it was a bit broader than just elves.
Where did Gandalf go, when he died and wandered "for time out of mind" (time having no existence or application in the Halls of Mandos of course) before he "was sent back to complete his mission" ?? Was that not also the Halls? (He did not come back of his own accord..!)

(Ent has a LONG way to go here.)

Click to expand...

No, not the Halls of Mandos, which are within time.

"Gandalf really 'died', and was changed: for that seems to me the only real cheating, to represent anything that can be called 'death' as making no difference. 'I am G. the White, who has returned from death'. Probably he should rather have said to Wormtongue: 'I have not passed through death (not 'fire and flood') to bandy crooked words with a serving-man'."

"Gandalf alone fully passes the tests, on a moral plane anyway (he makes mistakes of judgement). For in his condition it was for him a sacrifice to perish on the Bridge in defence of his companions...".

"He was handing over to the Authority that ordained the Rules, and giving up personal hope of success.
That I should say is what the Authority wished, as a set-off to Saruman. The 'wizards', as such, had failed; or if you like: the crisis had become too grave and needed an enhancement of power. So Gandalf sacrificed himself, was accepted, and enhanced, and returned. "

"He was sent by a mere prudent plan of the angelic Valar or governors; but Authority had taken up this plan and enlarged it, at the moment of its failure. 'Naked I was sent back – for a brief time, until my task is done'. Sent back by whom, and whence? Not by the 'gods' whose business is only with this embodied world and its time; for he passed 'out of thought and time'."

All quotes from Letter 156.

He passed out of time (and hence the World/Universe/Creation).
He was enhanced and sent back by Authority, i.e. Eru.

Tar-Elenion said:

Halls of Mandos, which are within time.

Click to expand...

Can you provide reference to solidify this? It is one of the big questions with which some struggle, including Ent, having been unable to find any definitive reference to Time applying within the Halls. Would love to get this settled.

Something up there about Sauron compared to Morgoth:

"Notes on motives in the Silmarillion
Sauron was 'greater', effectively, in the Second Age than Morgoth at the end of the First. Why? Because, though he was far smaller by natural stature, he had not yet fallen so low. Eventually he also squandered his power (of being) in the endeavour to gain control of others. But he was not obliged to expend so much of himself."
Morgoth's Ring, MT, VII

and re: Sauron's form:

"Sauron should be thought of as very terrible. The form that he took was that of a man of more than human stature, but not gigantic. In his earlier incarnation he was able to veil his power (as Gandalf did) and could appear as a commanding figure of great strength of body and supremely royal demeanour and countenance."
Letter 246

Ent said:

Can you provide reference to solidify this? It is one of the big questions with which some struggle, including Ent, having been unable to find any definitive reference to Time applying within the Halls. Would love to get this settled.

Click to expand...

The Halls of Mandos are within time, as they are within creation.
Melkor "...was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos, whence none can escape, neither Vala, nor Elf, nor mortal Man. Vast and strong are those halls, and they were built in the west of the land of Aman. There was Melkor doomed to abide for three ages long, before his cause should be tried anew, or he should plead again for pardon."
The Silmarillion

Tar-Elenion said:

"...was cast into prison in the fastness of Mandos,

Click to expand...

Yes, thank you. This is the only passage Ent can find speaking to the possibility of the Halls being bound within time.

When were the trees created, marking the changing of the time, and when were the 'sun' and 'moon' set in the sky, after the destruction of the Two Trees?

As with Tolkien's foundational principle, in his "biblical" view, "time" did not start until the sun and moon were created and set in the sky "to mark day from night".

The Angelos (messengers), Light, the Heavens and the Earth all preceded time.

Ent will do more research on this part. Ent agrees the Hals of Mandos were founded westward on Aman"... just hasn't nailed down that they were "founded in time" - mostly because every thing created was created in the Song before Eru claimed 'let these things be'. How Mandos sang the halls is unclear to me.

Lovely discussion... but perhaps again we are derailing a thread..?
There must also be other Halls of Mandos threads to locate. Ent will look when he's 'off work' at some point (soon) as an open question exists with one other member at least.

Ent said:

We can but wait and see. Whatever it is, Ent is looking forward to the 2nd season... but not in the least looking forward to the ire it will unquestionably incite, while we all go through another severe period of complaint, accusation, demand for retribution, coverage of how terrible it is such things can be done to Tolkien and his work, how lawsuit should be filed, etc. etc. etc.

One round of the riotous is never enough, you know. History always repeats itself. 😁

But at the end of the day, the situation remains the same.

Click to expand...

Yes, oh the joy...

Ent said:

Lovely discussion... but perhaps again we are derailing a thread..?
There must also be other Halls of Mandos threads to locate. Ent will look when he's 'off work' at some point (soon) as an open question exists with one other member at least.

Click to expand...

Wouldn't worry about it. Pretty sure this thread was hijacked back around page 2 or thereabouts. 😆

Halasían said:

Yes, oh the joy...

Click to expand...

Perfect reply...just spot on.

Stick-poke...

Make way for Celeborn. Maybe he can settle Galadriel down some.

Halasían said:

Stick-poke...

Make way for Celeborn. Maybe he can settle Galadriel down some.

Click to expand...

Can't believe they finally found him, and here I was thinking Galadriel had lost him 😮

CheriptheRipper said:

here I was thinking Galadriel had lost him 😮

Click to expand...

Actually it was Amazon that had misplaced him.

I wonder if they'll give him a short, horrible hairstyle like they did most of the other Elves. 😫