👁️Sauron and Durin's Bane Were Best Buddies

Bucky · Feb 24, 2012

Relax, Bowman...

I think, since we've discussed long about ~ and I believe you understand the whole bizness about the different 'levels' of 'spiritual beings' entering into M-e in the beginning on the Smaug War of Wrath thread, you'd catch where I was going on the whole 'Nazgul being a type of Maiar' angle.

They truly are...

Tolkien spells out in 'Myths Transformed' that there were Orc Captains in the First Age that were 'the least' of the 'Corrupted spirits' that Melkor had seduced...

We've all concluded Glaurung had some sort of one of these spirirts, possibly even equal to Balrogs, in him. So, they were out & about then.

Gandalf told Frodo after he awakens in The House of Elrond, and asks about the rescue at the Ford of Bruienen, as far as Glorfindel's part at the end:

"those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both, & against both the Seen & Unseen they have great power.'

So, there is the natural, or 'Seen' realm, which Men, Dwarves, Hobbits, animals, Tress, etc, dwell in..

And, 'The Unseen', or spiritual realm where the Ainur can dwell, unclad or 'Unseen'. At times, they 'clad' themselves & walk in forms of majesty 'splendor' (or dread) visible to the eyes of mortals...

Of course as time passes, the effect of evil consuming the host seems to bind the 'evil' spirits to the form they take, but that's hardly the point here.

So, my points?

1. As the Nazgul have passed in this 'Unseen' world, having gained greater power through their Rings, they can hardly be seen any longer as mere Men from a power standpoint.
This especially goes for the Witch-king. who Gandalf call a 'sorcerer of old' & could literally cause the weather to turn worse in winter.

2. Since the Nazgul have permanently entered the 'Wraith world' or 'Unseen' worlds, they are totally bound to the will of Sauron.

A. He no longer needs the Rings on their fingers to control them. Tolkien is very clear they have no will of their own any longer.

B. Since they are totally in the wraith or 'Unseen' world, the Nazgul no longer need the Rings to maintain 'eternal' life so to speak, nor invisibility.

3. How not having the Rings on their fingers effects each of their individual strengths, I really have no clue, but I suspect that being so bound up in the fate of their own Ring, & their Master, not to mention his Ring, I doubt much if any. Otherwise, why would Sauron take them, trifles to him as they are?

"A thought, anyone?"

Bard the Bowman · Feb 24, 2012

We seem to be straying from the point of the thread, partly my fault. But I think the question that needs to be answered is, why wasn't Gandalf concerned about Durin's Bane being used by Sauron? He knew of a terror under the mountains surely. He didn't know it was a great Balrog that might remain independent from Sauron, but he knew something powerful enough to drive the powerful Morian? dwarfs out resided there.

Gandalf was very concerned about Smaug, although he appeared like dragons usually do, lazy and content with mounds of treasure. Why would he give so much thought to Smaug and not to Durin's Bane?

Or would anyone argue that he didn't really give much thought to Smaug? He just sent a few dwarfs and a hobbit on an impossible quest, not really too concerned, and then later takes all the credit. Is that what happened?

But you would think Gandalf would know there are orcs from Mordor in Moria, and that a possible alliance could form between Sauron and Durin's Bane (not affirmatively identified as a Balrog). Why wasn't he concerned?

This kind of spills over to my other thread I just posted. Sort of a mish-mash of both.

Elthir · Feb 24, 2012

I did not know CT had written a 'History of the Silmarillion'

I think this title might be a way to distinguish Christopher Tolkien's private work on the Silmarillion (plus the now published material) from those parts of that work that were chosen for HME. In other words, the more complete version 'behind' HME I guess.

'After its publication in 1977 I began on what at first was a purely private study, a History of The Silmarillion, an exhaustive investigation and analysis of every page and passage in all my father's writings, leaving no stone unturned; and as this evolved over the years it became, greatly enlarged in scope, The History of Middle-Earth in 12 books, finally completed in 1996. In this the relationship is revealed between the published Silmarillion and the vast mass of writing from which it was derived – but not of course all the reasons and justifications for the way in which the work was carried out.'

Christopher Tolkien

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/05/jrr-tokien-sigurd-gudrun-poem

Christopher Tolkien also explained that the part of The History of Middle-earth dealing with the Elder Days is a new presentation of The History of the Silmarillion, and a severe contraction of it, especially in respect of the sheer quantity of variant manuscript material reproduced in full.

Bard the Bowman · Feb 24, 2012

Galin said:
I think this title might be a way to distinguish Christopher Tolkien's private work on the Silmarillion (plus the now published material) from those parts of that work that were chosen for HME. In other words, the more complete version 'behind' HME I guess.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2009/may/05/jrr-tokien-sigurd-gudrun-poem

Christopher Tolkien also explained that the part of The History of Middle-earth dealing with the Elder Days is a new presentation of The History of the Silmarillion, and a severe contraction of it, especially in respect of the sheer quantity of variant manuscript material reproduced in full.

Interesting. Well, now back to the topic.

Elthir · Feb 25, 2012

And, I agree with you on Arda Reconstructed as far as the opinions? Is it a commentary or just a 'dissection of the construction of the book'?

I guess part both....

Yes AR is critical of the constructed Silmarillion, as well as merely sourcing passages. As the AR website currently states:

He also makes a frank appraisal of the material omitted by Christopher Tolkien (and in a couple of egregious cases the material invented by him) and how these omissions and insertions may have distorted his father’s vision of what he considered—even more then The Lord of the Rings—to be his most important work.

I don't know who wrote this section, currently at the AR website, but I would not have chosen the word 'egregious' myself, no matter what sense is meant.

I think most people would find it difficult to certainly pick out Christopher Tolkien's relatively few inventions for the Silmarillion (none of which he wanted to engage in really), and older commentary from Tolkien scholar Tom Shippey even ascribes one of Christopher Tolkien's (who had help from Guy Kay) more notable inventions to JRRT himself.

Anyway, as far as opinions go...

... most people seem to have at least one ;*)

Troll · Feb 25, 2012

Bucky said:
Relax, Bowman...

I think, since we've discussed long about ~ and I believe you understand the whole bizness about the different 'levels' of 'spiritual beings' entering into M-e in the beginning on the Smaug War of Wrath thread, you'd catch where I was going on the whole 'Nazgul being a type of Maiar' angle.

They truly are...

Tolkien spells out in 'Myths Transformed' that there were Orc Captains in the First Age that were 'the least' of the 'Corrupted spirits' that Melkor had seduced...

We've all concluded Glaurung had some sort of one of these spirirts, possibly even equal to Balrogs, in him. So, they were out & about then.

Gandalf told Frodo after he awakens in The House of Elrond, and asks about the rescue at the Ford of Bruienen, as far as Glorfindel's part at the end:

"those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both, & against both the Seen & Unseen they have great power.'

So, there is the natural, or 'Seen' realm, which Men, Dwarves, Hobbits, animals, Tress, etc, dwell in..

And, 'The Unseen', or spiritual realm where the Ainur can dwell, unclad or 'Unseen'. At times, they 'clad' themselves & walk in forms of majesty 'splendor' (or dread) visible to the eyes of mortals...

Of course as time passes, the effect of evil consuming the host seems to bind the 'evil' spirits to the form they take, but that's hardly the point here.

So, my points?

1. As the Nazgul have passed in this 'Unseen' world, having gained greater power through their Rings, they can hardly be seen any longer as mere Men from a power standpoint.
This especially goes for the Witch-king. who Gandalf call a 'sorcerer of old' & could literally cause the weather to turn worse in winter.

2. Since the Nazgul have permanently entered the 'Wraith world' or 'Unseen' worlds, they are totally bound to the will of Sauron.

A. He no longer needs the Rings on their fingers to control them. Tolkien is very clear they have no will of their own any longer.

B. Since they are totally in the wraith or 'Unseen' world, the Nazgul no longer need the Rings to maintain 'eternal' life so to speak, nor invisibility.

3. How not having the Rings on their fingers effects each of their individual strengths, I really have no clue, but I suspect that being so bound up in the fate of their own Ring, & their Master, not to mention his Ring, I doubt much if any. Otherwise, why would Sauron take them, trifles to him as they are?

"A thought, anyone?"

This is an interesting concept... Even if the Nazgul are Men passed into the Unseen World, I wouldn't agree that they are particularly comparable Maiar, but the question of whether or not the Nine kept their Rings is intriguing. Personally I never considered that Sauron might have deprived them of their Rings.

One fair question is, "when did Sauron deprive them of their Rings?" If he did so prior to his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, how did those Rings survive the destruction of Barad-dur? And why would he have done so? If their wills already belonged to him, what advantage would Sauron derive from taking the Rings away?

Elthir · Feb 25, 2012

I think Sauron took back the Nine Rings sometime after the loss of the One.

At one point in the tale Gandalf says something like the Nine the Nazgul keep, but other quotes appear to say that Sauron gathered the rings to himself in the Third Age -- one more specific to the Nine being (Unfinished Tales, 'he' is Sauron):

'They were by far the most powerful of his servants, and most suitable for such a mission, since they were entirely enslaved to their Nine Rings, which he now himself held...'

Bucky · Feb 25, 2012

Troll said:
This is an interesting concept... Even if the Nazgul are Men passed into the Unseen World, I wouldn't agree that they are particularly comparable Maiar, but the question of whether or not the Nine kept their Rings is intriguing. Personally I never considered that Sauron might have deprived them of their Rings.

One fair question is, "when did Sauron deprive them of their Rings?" If he did so prior to his defeat in the War of the Last Alliance, how did those Rings survive the destruction of Barad-dur? And why would he have done so? If their wills already belonged to him, what advantage would Sauron derive from taking the Rings away?

Well, to 'quote the Bard' ;*) it really isn't even an 'if' the Nazgul 'had' passed into the Unseen World' it's a fact...

Gandalf is talking about Glorfindel revealed in his power, and it's because he 'has dwelt in the Blessed Realm', one would assume, although the text does not say it, during the Light of the Two Trees.

Therefore ~ and this sorta ties things in a nice little bow ~ The Nazgul are in the Unseen World. Where they rank in stature is not mine to determine.

I was simply stating the fact.
And, backing it up by the further proof that not all beings in the Unseen World were super-high-lever big, bad boogey-men like Sauron, Gothmog, Durin's Bane and (presumably) Glaurung. There were the least of all First Age 'Orc-Captains'...

I don't think anyone would agrue that the Witch-king was more powerful than a First Age Orc Captain on steroids so to speak, right?

Yet Tolkien calls them the 'least of Maiar', and certainly they are in the Unseen World as are our Nazgul...

Humm....

And then the final point:

Glorfindel, who kills a Balrog & dies at the same time, makes the whole Nine run away after he's come back from the dead...

Gandalf, who kills a Balrog & dies in the battle also, has held off 5 of the Nine all night & then escaped all Nine the following morning, yet now, back better than ever from the dead, he's afraid of just one of the Nine, the greatest of the Nine, for sure, when he's already held him off for a night with 4 of his friends as a lesser being?

So:

1. Witch-king got a lot stronger because:

A. He's alone without the Nine.

B. Gandalf is stronger than ever to begin with.

2. Gandalf is certainly not afraid of the Witch-king at the Gates and/or the Witch-king is one very powerful being indeed. I'd say Gandalf is not afraid, but the Witch-king is also one very powerful being at various stages in his history, including this confrontation.

3. Glorfindel & Gandalf appear to be quite comparable in power.

4. I'd say their equality in power is due to the Elves who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm in the Light of the Two Trees.

5. Balrog killing, therefore is not a matter of 'who's better, because they killed' this or that one'; or 'got in this one's face' comparisons, it's just a matter of pouring everything one has in oneself into it to get the job done, and as all three detailed confrontations show this end result, we can safely conclude Feanor did not kill any Balrogs..

Troll · Feb 25, 2012

I wan't questioning the Nazgul having passed into the Unseen World. I just think it's a categorical error to call them Maiar or think of them in such terms.

Bard the Bowman · Feb 25, 2012

First of all Bucky, I would argue that the Witch-king is easily more powerful than a First Age orc captain. Please tell me you were being sarcastic there.

Again, look at it this way.

Gandalf the Grey killed a Balrog, and later died himself.
Gandalf the White is much more powerful than the Grey.
Gandalf the White was matched, by the Witch-king.

From this we have to conclude one of two things: either the Witch-king was more powerful than the Balrog (not impossible: we already know for a fact the Witch-king became stronger the closer he was to Sauron), or Gandalf the White, while still powerful, is not nearly as powerful as we think and actually the "greatness" needed to slay a Balrog is far less than previously imagined.

If we agree on the first one, then whether or not Feanor slew any Balrogs is moot. I would have no basis for that claim and would just have to assume that being the "Spirit of Fire" he was not affected as much by fiery wounds and therefore could fight longer.

However, if we go with option 2, then very different implications are presented.

1. Gandalf, a lesser Maiar, known primarily for his wisdom, is able to take a Balrog (also identified as a lesser Maiar).
2. Glorfindel took out a Balrog (actually described as mighty, but let's not split hairs here) and achieved a better result than Gandalf. Therefore one can conclude that Glorfindel possessed more of the skills needed to defeat a Balrog. What those are exactly, is a subject for another thread.
3. Feanor is acclaimed as the mightiest of the Noldor, much greater than Glorfindel. Therefore, if Gandalf, who is less powerful (in battle) than Glorfindel, can defeat a Balrog one-on-one, then you have to think Feanor, in a "long" fight may have been able to slay at least one Balrog. It is a possibility, and not an unreasonable one, if you take option number 2.

Bucky · Feb 26, 2012

Oh, I stumbled across this in Letter # 144 (25 April, 1954):

'The Balrog is a survivor from The Silmarillion and the legends of First Age. So is Shelob. The Balrogs, of whom the whips were the cheif weapons, were primeval spirits of desroying fire, cheif servants of the primeval Dark Power of the First Age. They were supposed to have been all destroyed in the overthrow of Thangorodrim, his fortress in the North. But here it is found (there is usually a hang-over especially of the evil from one age to another) that one had escaped & taken refuge under the mountains of Hithaeglin (the Misty Mountains). It is observable only the Elf knows what the thing is ~ and doubtless Gandalf.'

Note: 'one had escaped'

Bard the Bowman · Feb 26, 2012

Cool. So we also know Shelob is immortal. Hmmmmm. Well what do you say to my last post?

Erestor Arcamen · Feb 26, 2012

Bard the Bowman said:
Cool. So we also know Shelob is immortal. Hmmmmm. Well what do you say to my last post?

It doesn't say Shelob is immortal just 'Leftover from the legends of the First Age.'

Bard the Bowman · Feb 26, 2012

Okay not immortal, just really freaking old. Smaug could just be one of those.

Bucky · Feb 27, 2012

Bard the Bowman said:
Okay not immortal, just really freaking old. Smaug could just be one of those.

I knew that was coming...
;*)

Your last post...

I think we've just come an impass. It's been talked out. I don't think such a monumental event as slaying a Balrog would go undocumented.

Plus, the modus operandi in such battles seems to be the pouring out of oneself onto death, which Feanor did not do.

So, I say no.

You say maybe.

We disagree. Impasse.

Bard the Bowman · Feb 27, 2012

Listen, I'm not saying he did. Where did you ever get that idea? Glorfindel certainly did not "pour himself onto death", it was a bit of bad luck. All I'm saying is there's a possibility, due to the logical succession of points shown earlier, and Feanor's unmatched power.

By the way Bucky, Gandalf the Grey fought all Nine on top of Weathertop. Yeah, I know. All Nine.

Brand of Dale · Mar 2, 2012

Re: Sauron and Durin\'s Bane Were Best Buddies

Feanor killed a Balrog? When?

Bucky · Mar 2, 2012

You'll have to read the whole thread...

It's a long story.

He didn't.

The trolls are trying to tweak us.

Brand of Dale · Mar 2, 2012

Re: Sauron and Durin\'s Bane Were Best Buddies

I know he fought Balrogs. Do you think he could have killed one in that battle?

Bucky · Mar 2, 2012

No.

This thread is played out.

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