👁️Sauron and Melkor...

I don't think Sauron was serving Melkor after he was chained in the Doors of Night. Sauron knew he wasn't coming back, so he was serving his own ambitions in the Second and Third Age.

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
We shall never know... It depends if it was when they were the greedy snobs or the royal noble-men. I'm thinking they couldn't do it. Not even all of the Noldor could do it...

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Well the Noldor were divided.

Would they have defeated Morgoth if Feanor had not abandoned Fingolfin's Host, and all had been together for the battle under the stars?

How about Nargothond at Nirnaeth?

I think it comes to one thing: How many Numenoreans would there be during the war? I think they'd have to out-number the armies of the Eldar and Edain at Nirnaeth, by hmm... wild guess... by at least 40 % to do it in similar circumstances.

About Sauron... I think it possible he was not serving Morgoth and only preached it to turn men to evil. Tolkien says something found in HoME X, Myth's transformed... Notes on Motives in the Silmarillion to the effect of:

The willingness of Sauron to admit the superiority of another being over himself is a shadow of good, and that it is doubtful whether this shadow of good still existed at the end of the Second Age.

I rather believe Sauron was in it for himself. Did he know Morgoth's nihilism? If so, why serve him when Sauron himself was not nihilistic yet? On the other hand, if Sauron knew this of Morgoth, he had to have learned it in the First Age, and why then did he serve Morgoth? Perhaps Sauron ceased to truly serve Morgoth during the First Age? Afterall, he does seem like a guy who wants things his own way. I haven't read The Letters though, so maybe something exists that disproves this idea.

But as HelplessModAddi said earlier, Sauron, even if he thought he was serving himself, was ultimately a tool of Morgoth.

Also, Morgoth was already greatly lessend before he darkend Valinor.

Re: A new question

Originally posted by Beleg_strongbow
This all leads me to another Question,

We know that even at the Height of his power in second age, Sauron, armywise proved no match for the Numenoreans.
So do you think that Numenorean's at the height of their power, would have been any match to Morgoth?

Sorry for the robbing the thread like this, but I don't feel that the querry is great enough to warrant a seperate thread.

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Look at it in this way: Ar-Pharazôn had enough manpower to invade Valinor.

He is not a dumb guy, so he must have figured there was a chance (a certainty, as he saw it) of victory in that invasion. And that is the best guarded land on the planet, Pelóri and all; with the most powerful inhabitants.

I think the Númenóreans would easily beat Morgoth's armies in the end of the First Age -- I think Ar-Pharazôn's army was the most powerful war machine in history, defeated only by Eru's direct intervention.

(Go Númenóreans! )

The Numenoreans were allowed to "invade" Valinor because the Valar didn't know how to handle the situation. They knew that they couldn't destroy "the Children of Illuvatar" ... the race of Men whom even they did not understand the fate which was designated for them by Eru. That is why Manwe laid down his guardianship and let the Big Guy personally take care of the situation (kind of like "you can't touch my kid but I can"). Also ... the Numenoreans never faced armies of flying Dragons or swarms of wrathful Balrogs. I believe they would have been no match for the might of Angband.

I think Ar-Pharazôn's army was the most powerful war machine in history, defeated only by Eru's direct intervention

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Maybe. But they were no match for a joint Valarin+Maiacal+Eldarin force-they would get whooped. That's why Sauron sent Ar=Pharazon to Valinor-he knew they would be defeated, he was still in his temple at the time of the attack, he didn't know Eru would intervene, or that the retaliation would be that catastrophic, but he knew that Numenoreans were not-powerful enough for the Valar. I think it ranks in the top three armies though, the army at the War of Wrath, Ar-Pharazons armament and the Last Alliance. But they were undoubtley less powerful then the Valarin army that was sent to capture Melkor to deliver the Elves from him.

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Maybe. But they were no match for a joint Valarin+Maiacal+Eldarin force-they would get whooped. That's why Sauron sent Ar=Pharazon to Valinor-he knew they would be defeated, he was still in his temple at the time of the attack, he didn't know Eru would intervene, or that the retaliation would be that catastrophic, but he knew that Numenoreans were not-powerful enough for the Valar.

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Sauron was neither stupid nor crazy.

If he agreed to be taken to Númenor, it was for a purpose. If he drove Ar-Pharazôn to worship Morgoth, it was again for a purpose. If he drove the same Ar-Pharazôn to invade Valinor, it was again for a purpose.

Sauron was never the "kamikaze" kind of guy. The one who wishes to be "King of All Men" doesn't destroy his own potential kingdom - doesn't saw off the branch on which himself stands. What did he hope to achieve? Even if Númenor didn't sink, the fact that Ar-Pharazôn lost would have ruined forever his "High Royal Councillor" seat; even if the King never returns alive, the people weren't those who would tolerate a foreigner, not of Line of Elros, to take the Scepter(even Pharazôn himself was the nephew of Tar-Palantir and therefore potential heir to the throne, had Miriel not existed). One way or another, when Sauron pursued the King to attempt the invasion, he had the idea of victory in mind.

So, what was Sauron's strategy?

He had been for all his life a servant to Melkor, knowing or not knowing it, and Ar-Pharazôn himself had been a servant to Melkor, without even being conscious of it. For they both were driven by ambition, desire to dominate as much as possible, which in the Professor's mind was the cause of all evils and the invention of Morgoth himself. That was the poison that Melkor originally poured into the world - and it allowed him to not even work to recruit servants: people, either Elves, Men, Dwarves or Orcs, and even Ainur, when they conspired to achieve more power and wealth, put themselves in Melkor's service, without even being asked for! In Tolkien's mind, the only "pure" or "untainted" people were the rustic folk like Hobbits or Silvan-Elves, who are unable of crime and oppresion because they are fully content with their lives(pretty idealistic and unfair world view, if you ask me). The difference between ordinary tyrants and Sauron was the fact that Sauron knew what he was doing - to help and serve his Master.

Once in Númenor, Sauron had done whatever possible to set up a Satanic/Morgothic religion, to drive the people under Melkor's rule... but Melkor was far away, into the Void.

Plan B: use the Men of Númenor as pawns, to assail the Blessed Realm. Once an invasion could be performed(with both Númenorean military might and Sauronian magic at work, otherwise it couldn't succeed), Sauron could have worked towards Melkor's release from the Void... bingo! The Dark Lord rules again! this must have been his ultimate goal.

One thing he missed... he never imagined what was Eru going to do...

~Best regards,

Nautilus

If he agreed to be taken to Númenor, it was for a purpose. If he drove Ar-Pharazôn to worship Morgoth

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I think the quote that Nom was looking for earlier is that Sauron preached aetheism, as it weakened resistance to himself. If people belived there was a good-willied god of far more power and prestige then Sauron or Melkor then they would think twice about worshiping them. Remeber to the Haradrim he was like a 'king and god' we also see that in the T.A he himself claimed he was Morogth, this could be the reason that his servants do not speak his name.

The one who wishes to be "King of All Men" doesn't destroy his own potential kingdom - doesn't saw off the branch on which himself stands. What did he hope to achieve? Even if Númenor didn't sink, the fact that Ar-Pharazôn lost would have ruined forever his "High Royal Councillor" seat; even if the King never returns alive, the people weren't those who would tolerate a foreigner, not of Line of Elros, to take the Scepter(even Pharazôn himself was the nephew of Tar-Palantir and therefore potential heir to the throne, had Miriel not existed). One way or another, when Sauron pursued the King to attempt the invasion, he had the idea of victory in mind

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No-he wanted to encompass the ruin of Numenor.

His small remaining force was assailed in the east of Calenardhon, and he with no more then a bodyguardfled to the regio afterward called Dagorlad whence broken and humiliated he returned to Mordor and vowed vengeance upon Numenor

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Of Galadriel and Celeborn; U.T

And he was crafty well skilled to gain what he would by subtlety when force might not avail

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Akallabeth; Published Silmarillion

What was this? Why the destruction of the Numenoreans, of course!

It was greater far then aught he looked for, hoping only for the death of Numenoreans and the defeat of their proud King

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Plan B: use the Men of Númenor as pawns, to assail the Blessed Realm. Once an invasion could be performed(with both Númenorean military might and Sauronian magic at work, otherwise it couldn't succeed), Sauron could have worked towards Melkor's release from the Void... bingo! The Dark Lord rules again! this must have been his ultimate goal

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The Void wasn't some kind of magic door which lead to Melkor. The 'void' was the equivalent of our solar system, Melkor was executed by Namo and fled there, Myths Transformed tells us that he would come back when he is ready- there was no 'Sauronian magic' on Arda that would bring him back, nor would he want to-he was rid of the Edain and would be master of Arda now.

Originally posted by Inderjit S
Maybe. But they were no match for a joint Valarin+Maiacal+Eldarin force-they would get whooped. That's why Sauron sent Ar=Pharazon to Valinor-he knew they would be defeated, he was still in his temple at the time of the attack, he didn't know Eru would intervene, or that the retaliation would be that catastrophic, but he knew that Numenoreans were not-powerful enough for the Valar. I think it ranks in the top three armies though, the army at the War of Wrath, Ar-Pharazons armament and the Last Alliance. But they were undoubtley less powerful then the Valarin army that was sent to capture Melkor to deliver the Elves from him.

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Hmm... I don't like to argue with the unstumpable Inder . But why do you think that? I don't see any reason from the books, perhaps you've read something I didn't (quite likely, in fact ). But I would suppose that Ar-Pharazôn (and his generals) would be acquainted, through history, with the power of the Valarin army, which their ancestors witnessed in a war that lasted for decades (by the way, if the Valar were so hot, why did their army take so long to defeat Morgoth? Morgoth was almost defeated without their help, but for the Treason of Men, in the Nirnaeth...)

Númenóreans were the most advanced people on earth, almost certainly more advanced than elves in technology. They were dabbling with flight, were they not? Or is this a non-canonical view?

They defeated a Sauron that commanded all Middle-Earth without a fight. All right, Sauron was being wily, but if there were a chance to win in battle, wouldn't Sauron try that? He could always be wily later.

Finally, why could not the Valar wipe out the Númenóreans if they had the military strength for that? They would not be "destroying the Children of Ilúvatar", there were plenty of Men left in Middle-Earth. Why didn't they simply defeat the Numenóreans, without bothering to "wake up" Eru? It's not as if they were against killing men because of their religion, I assume they killed a lot of men, Morgoth's allies, in the War of Wrath.



I think that all of the above indicates that the Númenóreans were more powerful militarly than the Valar. And they both knew it. That's why the Númenóreans attacked in the first place, and why the Valar had to invoke Eru.

Originally posted by BlackCaptain
Well... Sauron was in service to Morgoth for all of his existance, even when he was destroyed (not killed... Maia can't die). Melkor was cast into the void... Which means he was incapasitated permanantly. It was all up to Sauron then... He was all alone.

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Not quite true. Sauron was not always a follower of Melkor. He broke alligence with Aulë to Join Melkor in his dark works.

Yet so great was the power of his uprising that in ages forgotten he contended with Manwë and all the Valar, and through long years in Arda held dominion over most of the lands of the Earth. But he was not alone. For of the Maiar many were drawn to his splendour in the days of his greatness, and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness; and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts. Dreadful among these spirits were the Valaraukar, the scourges of fire that in Middle-earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.
Among those of his servants that have names the greatest was that spirit whom the Eldar called Sauron, or Gorthaur the Cruel. In his beginning he was of the Maiar of Aulë, and he remained mighty in the lore of that people. In all the deeds of Melkor the Morgoth upon Arda, in his vast works and in the deceits of his cunning, Sauron had a part, and was only less evil than his master in that for long he served another and not himself. But in after years he rose like a shadow of Morgoth and a ghost of his malice, and walked behind him on the same ruinous path down into the Void.

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I hope that helps clear things up a bit.


RD

Power of the Númenóreans

Originally posted by Inderjit S
But they were no match for a joint Valarin+Maiacal+Eldarin force-they would get whooped.

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Here's an interesting quote from letter #131 (not dated, but was probably written late in 1951):

But at last Sauron's plot comes to fulfilment. Tar-Calion feels old age and death approaching, and he listens to the last prompting of Sauron, and building the greatest of all armadas, he sets sail into the West, breaking the Ban, and going up with war to wrest from the gods 'everlasting life within the circles of the world'. Faced by this rebellion, of appalling folly and blasphemy, and also real peril (since the Númenóreans directed by Sauron could have wrought ruin in Valinor itself) the Valar lay down their delegated power and appeal to God, and receive the power and permission to deal with the situation; the old world is broken and changed.

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I think Sauron must have hoped that war would have ruined both forces. It is clear that Sauron had the motive of destroying the Numenoreans because of the humiliation they caused him.

In Addition to what Inderjit has provided:

HoME X, Myths transformed, Notes on motives...

But though Sauron's whole true motive was the destruction of the Numenoreans, this was a particular matter of revenge upon Ar-Pharazon, for humiliation. Sauron (unlike Morgoth) would have been content for the Numenoreans to exist, as his own subjects, and indeed he used a great many of them that he corrupted to his allegiance.

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But even if Sauron did want Numenor to truimph over Valinor, why should he want Morgoth to return at this point? Sauron wanted to rule and Morgoth wanted to destroy. I started a thread awhile back aftering reading this bit of Morgoth's Ring, and there was some disagreement, but in the end I was still left believing that had Morgoth not been taken down by the Host of The Valar, Sauron would have eventually attempted to gain a following against Morgoth, and likely sought allies in the Eldar of Middle-earth (the few who remained) as well as the Edain, and attacked Morgoth, and maybe even been successful in this.

I believe, and have little doubt, that Sauron wanted the ruin of Numenoreans and the people of Aman, so that he could rule the world.

I am not desputing that they couldn't bring ruin to Valinor-it was possible, of course and would have happened, but if you look at the power of the Ainur, the Incrantes simply do not compare. How many men would it take to slay a Balrog? Was it even possible for a man to slaya Balrog? There were 7 Balrogs-they wrought much ruin in the WoTJ, I mean a lot of Dwarvish warriors were slain by a single Balrog, Dwarves were esteemed warriors, if one Balrog can do so much damage then imagine what a host of Maia could do backed up by the Valar (Not the women of course ) plus a army of Teleri, Vanyar and Noldor and of course the mighty war badgers of the Valar. How exactly would you slay Manwe? In Annals of Aman we hear that a HOST of Balrogs assailed his banner and were drove away. A host is a lot fo Balrogs, though admittedly the idea of a 'host' of Balrogs was dropped in favour of the Seven Balrog theory, but these Balrogs but this shows how mighty Manwe was, heck we haven't even got to Tulkas or that sadistic Namo.

They were dabbling with flight, were they

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What?

Finally, why could not the Valar wipe out the Númenóreans if they had the military strength for that

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What's the point in wasting lives when daddy dear can take care of the problem? They didn't want war in Valinor-oh no you wanna do that go to M-E, or as the Valar undoubtedly called it '****land' (Interpret **** how you will )

Even neverminding the might of the Valar.

Because they were ealer and did not incarnate like Morgoth and balrogs did, and spirits can not be destoyed, there was no way the Valar could be personally defeated. Right? Just their realm and the Eldar, as I see it.

Originally posted by Inderjit S

What?

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Hehe. It seems it is not canonical. I remembered this thread of Idril's:

Space Travel

And I thought it had some grounds. Well, the author says that in the Lost Road, Tolkien wrote that the downfallen tried to reach Valinor with aircraft (I never read the Lost Road ).

I don't think the Númenóreans could kill any Valar or Maiar, mainly because they were not "connected" to their bodies as Morgoth and the Balrogs were -- they could simply shed off their "raiments" and become pure spirit. Hard to kill a pure spirit. But I think that Númenór was powerful enough to invade and destroy all incarnates in Aman; or at least make a big mess out of it, something that Melkor never planned or thought possible.

So, to recall the original question, I think Númenór could defeat Morgoth's armies. The Noldor and Men almost did it by themselves, but for the Treason of the Easterlings -- Númenór was clearly much more powerful than them, in my opinion.

I don't think that the elves were physically superior then the Numenoreans.
Actually Eriol the purpose of the Valarian army was to utterly destroy Morgothian armies and capture Morgoth. No matter how hard the Noldor and co tried, they would never have been able to utterly defeat Morgoth's armies. Just look at the strength he unleashed at the Last Battle. I don't think even one tith of the strength was used up in the earlier battles. Nirnaeth would have been a momentary setback for Morgoth. Defeat in Nirnaeth would mean that Morgoth wouldn't have enough strength left to invade Beleriand for a long time, but he could just sit back in his dungeons and pits and nurse his strength and slowly build it back to its original position. The incranates IMO don't possess enough metal to break open the impregnable dungeons of Angband and utterly defeat Morgoth.
There is a huge difference in the relative power between the Children and Ainur.

Hmm... wasn't Angband "emptied" at the Nirnaeth? I remember this sentence somewhere. So I don't think Melkor was using only "one tith" (does that mean one tenth? I don't know) of this strength. I agree that the Noldor and Edain could not kill Morgoth or destroy his power by themselves, but they could kill his soldiers -- right? They could have destroyed Morgoth's armies, but for the treason of the Easterlings. I'll re-read that chapter again to make sure.

If the Noldor + Edain could, I'm sure that the Númenóreans could as well. Perhaps they could not kill off the big guy -- but then again, perhaps they could. Morgoth was very much attached to his body, like an Incarnate, then. His power was spread, etc. etc. But they could deal with Dragons and Balrogs, in my opinion; the Noldor and Edain together almost dealt with them.

This assumes the "Balrog host" conception, not the later 7 Balrogs; I'm not too acquainted with the power of these few Balrogs. But in any version Ecthelion killed a Balrog, right? So they are not so tough as to be invincible.

If the Noldor + Edain could, I'm sure that the Númenóreans could as well. Perhaps they could not kill off the big guy -- but then again, perhaps they could. Morgoth was very much attached to his body, like an Incarnate, then. His power was spread, etc. etc. But they could deal with Dragons and Balrogs, in my opinion; the Noldor and Edain together almost dealt with them.

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Valar and Valinorean Maiar were also Incarnates - permanently attached to bodies; that's why at least some of them could have suffered Sauron's fate during the War of the Last Alliance. Plus, to which use was to Manwe to escape unharmed, when the Men of Westernesse were blowing the continent from below his arse?

The idea that Sauron wanted just to destroy the Men of Numenor doesn't hold too much water - one doesn't try to gain leadership over a place just to blow it up, but to lead it.

~Nautilus

Hmm, Valar and Valinorean Maiar -- good Maiar -- were not incarnates. They could shed their bodies as raiments. Or at least the Valaquenta says so, if I'm not going crazy.



Morgoth expended a lot of power to control and dominate, and therefore became more attached to his body than a Vala usually is. That is why he can be (and was) executed.

I don't think that the Númenóreans could defeat the Valar; if it seems like I said that, sorry. I said that the Númenóreans thought they could invade Valinor. Since they are not lunatics, they had a pretty strong army; strong enough, I think, to defeat Morgoth's armies at the end of the First Age. I think that the Númenórean war machine could take any other army on history -- including an army of Valinorean Elves. BUT, I think that the Valar themselves are a different story. Even if the Númenóreans could wipe out every Elf in Aman, they still had to deal with the Valar -- and I don't think they could do that, because the Valar were pure spirit. Even if Númenór had more military power than the Valar, they could not ever defeat them -- or so I think. But the question was Númenor x Morgoth, not Númenor x Valar...

Am I the only one who is impressed by the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet? I really can't see how the armies of Morgoth could ever defeat that.

Am I the only one who is impressed by the description of Ar-Pharazôn's fleet? I really can't see how the armies of Morgoth could ever defeat that.

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No Eriol I am very impressed by the fleet of Ar-Pharazon. I think that yes they could have defeated Morogoth's armies but it would come down to Morogoth himself....I dont think they had a chance of binding him and even if they did get him down then they would not have anything powerful enough to hold him...unless they got his chains from the Valar.

Hmm... this led me to a completely different thought. So different I'll open a thread about it.