Foe-Hammer
Member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2001
- Messages
- 984
Originally posted by joxy
You've lost me on "bumbling boob", but accepting that, and realising that you can't have both" of three things, I see no reason why one person shouldn't show at least three different aspects at different times.
Believable in the film? The Sam who is in awe of elves isn't satisfied with Galadriel's gift - that's believeable, or consistent?
I haven't seen ANY complaints about special effects. Surely, they're the single best feature of the FOTR film?
You're critical of cartoonish characters in a serious story? The film's Pippin & Merry, and sometimes Gimli, are pretty cartoonish, and FOTR is a serious story about......
Originally posted by Rúmil
There are ways to explain the 'inconsistencies' you talk about, Foe-Hammer:
cloaks on ringwraiths:
1/ they had to have interaction with humans, like Bill Ferny and Maggot.
2/ in their clad form, their power of terror was increased, as the mind could form a clearer and more dreadful image of the danger. This is obviously what they would need in their mission. Also, they could have a more direct relation with the living world when they were clad.
And, even if there was no way to explain the facts you point out (and I do grant you that the explanations I offer may be a little far-fetched), how are they inconsistencies? Dictators, special agents, experienced soldiers, all make mistakes. A mistake is only stupid in afterthought. A world where everyone would do just the right thing, and never mess up, would paradoxically be less realistic. Also, you forget the 'finger of God' element. Evil characters have a 'strange misfortune' all the time.
I you were suddenly in Sam's position, suddenly thrust into the company of men far wiser and more intelligent than yourself, and whom you were half tempted to trust, you might do worse.
As the book plainly indicates, Sam is aware of the risk of lighting a fire, but also that if they don't take adequate sustenance they were going to collapse. Also, if Gollum had not gone away and let them sleep, they would not have been caught.
Nothing in the book strikes me as being cartoonish. As in real life, some situations are serious, some call for laughter. No character in Lotr in essentially comic relief.
Originally posted by lilhobo
taste is in the pudding, show us the evidence
hehehehehe hahahaha is all the FADS can reply with
Originally posted by Foe-Hammer
"show you the evidence"?
None are so blind as those who refuse to see. And hobo, son, you are as blind as they come.
But they weren't out to eat Breelanders, but to catch Hobbits - preferably the one with the Ring. And I don't agree that the Sam of the book would not have worked in the film - though to act the part would have taken greater skill and, if successful, would be Oscar material.Originally posted by Foe-Hammer
Still, if they were walking around invisable, they could defeat any foe, before they were ready for them. Tactically, the smart thing to do. Lets paint our A1 Abrahms tanks purple will red lazer eyes on them so we can scare people to death. See, it just don't make sense. Kill em before you can see em. Gollum figured it out.
Sams character WORKS in the book, but the same character would look cartoonish (fake) on film.
They do both - one out of fear and self-promotion, the other out of their evil self-centredness. As Frodo said when the tracker orc killed his companion in Mordor "But that is the spirit of Mordor, Sam... Orcs have always behaved like that, or so all tales say, when they are on their own. But you can''t get much hope out of it. They hate us far more, altogether and all the time. If those two had seen us, they would have dropped all their quarrel until we were dead."
Any psychologist could give you the answer to this. It's the drip-drip torment of the negative from the father who should have loved him and encouraged him that destroys Faramir in Denethor's presence. He can be himself only when Denethor is not there, yet not himself, for he is always trying to prove himself to his father - to win the love which should have been given unconditionally. Gandalf's words to Faramir as he left Gondor again were: "Do not throw your life away rashly or in bitterness. You will be needed here, for other things than war. Your father loves you, Faramir, and will remember it ere the end. Farewell!"
You were in gravest peril while you wore the Ring, for then you were half in the wraith-world yourself, and they might have seized you.
Tolkien wrote Sam as a bumbling boob?
Originally posted by Rúmil
Maybe you could respond to our arguments instead of just saying NO, if you want to make a point?
Our point, I think joxy agrees with me, is that Sam was not especially bumbling, nor was he meant only for comic relief, far from it. All the occurrences of this so-called bumbling happened in circumstances in which any average person would have done the same or worse. In other circumstances, he displayed a great aptitude to think quick and act fast, as well of course as his undyoing loyalty and courage.
One may see in this little incident the finger of doom directing Faramir towards Frodo, without whom the quest may never have succeeded. In which case it is as much Ilúvatar's fault as it is Sam'sHe found that a small brand, burning away to its outer end, had kindled some fern at the edge of the fire, and the fern blazing up had set the turves smouldering. Hastily he stamped out what was left of the fire, scattered the ashes, and laid the turves on the hole. Then he crept back to Frodo.
Originally posted by Rúmil
These points have allready been adressed; if you want to refute our opinion, you need to come up with new arguments, Foe-Hammer.
As a remineder, it was pointed out that Sam leaving the fire unattended and allowing them to be discovered by Faramir and his men was also in great part due to Gollum sneaking away, contrary to his engagements towards Frodo; if he had carried out better his duties as a guide at this moment and stayed close, he could have been able to warn them and they would not have been caught. At the start the fire had made no smoke; it was only by chance that the fire, which in the beginning was completely invisible, made smoke; One may see in this little incident the finger of doom directing Faramir towards Frodo, without whom the quest may never have succeeded. In which case it is as much Ilúvatar's fault as it is Sam's
And as for Sam's 'spilling the beans' with Faramir, any normal person in such a situation might have done as bad or worse; maybe you have never been in the presence of men much stronger, nobler, wiser than you and extremely inquisitive; that can set your nerves off quite a deal.
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