Severance of Fëa and Hröa = Unnatural?

[Stu_Ov85]

Hi everyone.

In the Athrabeth Finrod strongly suggests to Andreth all the things we already know about the fate of Men. That their spirits are not bound to Arda, and this is their true nature as designed by The One from the outset.

Yet in the commentary notes after the piece it's stated that Finrod carries certain beliefs, one being that severance of fea and hroa is 'unnatural' and is contrary to the original design, in the marring of Arda. Finrod has these beliefs from the beginning, before he speculates on the fea taking the body to an existence beyond Ea.

I get that Arda Marred is an Elvish concept, but I'm struggling to distinguish the two things above. It's Eru's plan for men to die (spirits go elsewhere), but it's Melkors corruption that severs it from the body, and this wasn't what was intended? Or is the marring down to Men's original allegiance with Melkor, therefore Eru dishes out the punishment of severance, although death was always part of the plan?

Apologies if my query is unclear. I absolutely adore the Athrabeth but that one line in the commentary bugs me.

​

​

 

[Ent]

one being that severance of fea and hroa is 'unnatural' and is contrary to the original design, in the marring of Arda.

A very difficult subject and question.
Forgive an old Ent for seeking clarification.... I'd like to understand this sentence.

You say "in the marring of Arda."
Do you rather mean "due to the marring of Arda" perhaps?
(In the end this differential may not matter to your question, but the one implies a 'resultant' effect of the marring, while the other implies a 'causative' application during the marring's occurrence.)

The pondering here is difficult; certainly not 'clarified' by Tolkien anywhere I know of personally. (Which is not exhaustive, though often exhausting!)
The Children were completely unknown to the Ainur during the Three Themes, being entirely Eru's creation.
The Ainur were never authorized to 'adorn' the existence or being of the Children by Eru. So the likelihood they could 'touch them' in any way 'causatively' is almost certainly 'out of the picture'.

And, if indeed their spirits are not bound to Arda, Melkor marred Arda at two points... though they are essentially the same point, just expressed within two different 'times'. First, during the Music, and later physically. Yet if the spirits and Arda are not connected, the one has no impact on the other.

If I had to make a 'decision' based on current knowledge and thought, it would be it was Eru's plan from the beginning.

I refer now to this from Ainulindale:

"Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: ‘Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite." For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’​

This is followed by:

‘Behold your Music! This is your minstrelsy; and each of you shall find contained herein, amid the design that I set before you, all those things which it may seem that he himself devised or added. And thou, Melkor, wilt discover all the secret thoughts of thy mind, and wilt perceive that they are but a part of the whole and tributary to its glory.’​

Especially this mention "all the secret thoughts of thy mind," since he was clueless about the existence of the Firstborn and the Followers (the Children) means he had nothing to do with them and their being.

Thus what Eru says is this: all Melkor did was foreknown... and Melkor was but an instrument in helping make it so. All is 'from the source' Eru Himself, and utterly planned for in the Themes.

And the key: none of it actually exists as other than music (thought) until we hear Eru: Therefore I say: Eä! Let these things Be!

In short:
1. I do not find anywhere a reliable source or even inference Melkor was 'causative' in the Severance. He was clueless about the Children during the Song.
2. I do not find anything firm suggesting a 'resultant' ('consequent' may be a better word choice) severance as Melkor sought to physically carry out his discordant objections during the singing.
3. I do not find anything firm suggesting Eru would have added an 'unforeseen' later punishment to Man in his spiritual state, for his 'rebellion'. This too was foreknown.

ADDED NOTES:
If we bring in Tolkien's Catholic perspective, such a thing COULD be possible.
He may envision a 'death and reuniting' different than the Biblical one.
He would most likely hold the view Man, in his rebellion against God, 'died spiritually' though he remained living in the flesh and with a 'soul,' later to be united.

Biblically, while this 'seems' a later event, and was 'spoken' by God at a later time, it was there also foreknown.
The Spiritual rebirth within man, in a sense, 'reunites' the dead spirit again with the living flesh... though the spirit of man was never really 'gone'... simply 'dead' and without ability to have any effect on man. Somewhat different than his Eru events, but very similar.

As Tolkien wanted no 'overt' references to Christianity in his work, this could well be why it is not made clearer.

All that said, Melkor, like Satan, was not the 'cause' of the death of the spirit of man...though he was a tool helping bring it about. It was man's own CHOICE bringing his destruction.

Yet Eru foreknew this as well, and made every provision for it from the beginning.

There are, of course, also massive differences between Tolkien's 'creation story' and its specifics, and the Biblical 'creation story' and its specifics. But Tolkien states while there should be no "overt Christianity" in Myth and Fantasy, the elements of Religion and Morality MUST be there. (My additive: The only difference between authors and how they play out being each author's own background, desire and intent.)

I don't know if any of this rambling helps. (but I'm always happy to ramble nonetheless. 😁)

I'll keep pondering this issue... it's an interesting question.

 

[Stu_Ov85]

Thank you for your detailed reply.

Upon reading the notes on the commentary there may be an explanation detailed within, on the Elvish view that separation is not natural to them.

Quote - note 6

'But they appear to have held, and indeed still to hold, that this desire for the hröa shows that their later (and present) condition is not natural to them, and they remain in estel that Eru will heal it. 'Not natural', wether it is due wholly, as they earlier thought, to the weakening of the hröa (derived from the debility introduced by Melkor into the substance of Arda upon which it must feed), or partly due the inevitable working of a dominant fëa upon a material hröa through many ages)'​

Elves believe (and still do), that their hröa and fëa should remain in a permanent state of collaboration, until Arda ends. You can't (or rather shouldn't) have one without the other. A houseless spirit greatly desires a dwelling, and the two in their 'unmarred' state were never intended to be apart. Melkor, as he does with so many things, imposes malice on this original design through the marring of Arda.

The death of Men can be viewed as something different if we trust that their fëar are bound for elsewhere. If this is so, then there has technically been no separation, as the fëa has been housed within its time in Arda. Again Melkor's taint is cast on this, and something which should be considered a gift is now shrouded in darkness.

Andreth argues in the Athrabeth that she doesn't believe this to be in Mens nature at all, and that the two in Men should be in a permanent state of marriage, leading Finrod to his theories on Arda remade.

I agree it is highly thought provoking, but the notes do shed a bit more light, although numerous interpretations present themselves.

​

 

[Ent]

Yes, the notes do seem to speak to a union.
They also speak of them as 'theories' and the like... not unexpectedly, given neither the Elves nor the men 'really know'.
We do know Elves die... and their spirit 'goes someplace.' Some are given the opportunity to be returned in bodily form such as Glorfindel.
Do they return with 'the same' body they had? Or do they return in a different body?
Where and how do we know.

I'm still having a hard time linking Melkor with any ability to have an impact, causative or consequent, on what happens to either Men or Elves in any way, given he could only do what he was able to do in the Singing, and he was clueless they even existed. His 'marring' or 'discord' could only be applied to what he could see of the Themes... and in the Third Theme, where are the Children, he had no part.

In any event, this is what makes it all fun.

Where is the "Quote - note 6" you refer to located exactly? Is it also in SIL, and from which section?
Or from elsewhere.
I'd like to take a firsthand look at it and the sources from which it comes in context.
Maybe I'll get a better view.

 

[ZehnWaters]

My understanding is that the death men experience was part of the plan (how else COULD they leave Arda?) but the manner would have been different. We aren't told HOW, though it apparently included direct instruction by Eru as that was how men existed before embracing Melkor.

 

[Stu_Ov85]

The notes are in Morgoths Ring, Athrabeth Findrod Ah Andreth, and they follow the commentary after the main piece.

Your points on both the views being just Elvish theories and Melkors effect (or lack of) on the Children is an actually touched upon further in the notes. It raises the second point and addresses that if Elves believe their spirits overwhelm their bodies over several ages, and that this is 'unnatural', then by this logic the 'natural' design is that the hröa is unmarred and can withstand the presence of a fëa until time ends (this would suggest no fading).

However this cannot be as the Childen were introduced after Melkor wove his discord in the Music, and he had no part in their making or their nature. Elves it would seem, scarcely heed the concept. Of Men and Elves, Melkor marred little, save casting fear and darkness over death.

 

[Ent]

The notes are in Morgoths Ring,

Thanks for the 'point' and the further discussion.
I'm so thankful you've come aboard... you're quickly joining the LARGE number of participants here helping expand my Tolkien 'deeper lore' knowledge. (which is why I came.)

In spite of my advanced age, I'm still a Tolkien Infant, having been 'at it' only since 4/2022. (I'd read TH and LoTR 2-3 times many decades ago, but needed to postpone my study. Somewhere on here I've written a poem about that journey...)

All this is a pleasure 5 decades delayed for me.

I'll dig into Morgoth's Ring in that section soon. (I've gotten all Tolkien digitally, so I can research and expand quickly once I get to it.)

 

[Olorgando]

The notes are in Morgoths Ring, Athrabeth Findrod Ah Andreth, and they follow the commentary after the main piece.

This brings up the concept of "All of Arda was Morgoth's Ring".
A quick search in Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth" yields the following on page 88:

{The Quendi} Being "tainted" with the Marring {of Arda by Morgoth} (which affected all the "flesh of Arda" from which their hröar were derived and were nourished), ...
The end-note 7, explained on page 92, refers to X:399-401, i.e. "Morgoth's Ring", and on page 400 there is the following:

"Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda,had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits."

There are several more page references in NoMe under the index entry "Marring of Arda" that may differ in content to the above somewhat, depending on times of composition. These seemed to fit the question quite nicely; I'll leave the inquiry into those other references to others to have fun with. 😎

 

[ZehnWaters]

This brings up the concept of "All of Arda was Morgoth's Ring".
A quick search in Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth" yields the following on page 88:

{The Quendi} Being "tainted" with the Marring {of Arda by Morgoth} (which affected all the "flesh of Arda" from which their hröar were derived and were nourished), ...
The end-note 7, explained on page 92, refers to X:399-401, i.e. "Morgoth's Ring", and on page 400 there is the following:

"Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda,had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits."

There are several more page references in NoMe under the index entry "Marring of Arda" that may differ in content to the above somewhat, depending on times of composition. These seemed to fit the question quite nicely; I'll leave the inquiry into those other references to others to have fun with. 😎

Tolkien's discussion about the Statute of Míriel and Finwë talks about the marring of Melkor affecting anyone who is sustained by Arda as well (some of it is put off by being in Valinor, but basically anyone who derived nutrition from the rest of the world consumes and imbibes the corruption into themselves).

 

[Ent]

Excellent additions. So it would seem some at least feel Melkor's marring does have an impact.
Will do a BUNCH more digging. I'd like to determine if these are 'interpretations,' or how closely they are tied to Tolkien's own thinking....
Perhaps an ongoing close perusal of his Letters will help there too... I understand there are references he makes possibly leading to conclusions as well.
I've not been able to read them all yet, and of course now need to start over. Terrible proposition... 🤣

 

[Ent]

Perhaps when all this is done, someone can write up an entry for "Fea and Hroa" or such in our Wiki....

 

[Stu_Ov85]

This brings up the concept of "All of Arda was Morgoth's Ring".
A quick search in Hostetter's "The Nature of Middle-earth" yields the following on page 88:

{The Quendi} Being "tainted" with the Marring {of Arda by Morgoth} (which affected all the "flesh of Arda" from which their hröar were derived and were nourished), ...
The end-note 7, explained on page 92, refers to X:399-401, i.e. "Morgoth's Ring", and on page 400 there is the following:

"Thus, outside the Blessed Realm, all 'matter' was likely to have a 'Melkor ingredient', and those who had bodies, nourished by the hroa of Arda,had as it were a tendency, small or great, towards Melkor: they were none of them wholly free of him in their incarnate form, and their bodies had an effect upon their spirits."

There are several more page references in NoMe under the index entry "Marring of Arda" that may differ in content to the above somewhat, depending on times of composition. These seemed to fit the question quite nicely; I'll leave the inquiry into those other references to others to have fun with. 😎

So we can maybe deduce that whilst Melkor did indeed have an influence into the soils of Arda, and subsequently into the hröar of the Quendi, it had little impact of the design of The One. Elves, who perhaps thought otherwise, were always designed to fade, and unmarred or marred, this was their fate.

Morgoths Ring, Note 7​

​

'It cannot refer to the actual design of Eru, since the Themes of the Children were introduced after the arising of the discords of Melkor'. The 'waning' of the Elvish hröar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, and the mode in which the Elves were to make way for the Dominion of Men.'​

This raises another rather interesting thought on the Elves, in that they spent a seemingly unfathomable amount of time, trusting to estel, that Eru would amend the very design that was never to be altered, certainly not in this Arda

Thanks for the 'point' and the further discussion.
I'm so thankful you've come aboard... you're quickly joining the LARGE number of participants here helping expand my Tolkien 'deeper lore' knowledge. (which is why I came.)

In spite of my advanced age, I'm still a Tolkien Infant, having been 'at it' only since 4/2022. (I'd read TH and LoTR 2-3 times many decades ago, but needed to postpone my study. Somewhere on here I've written a poem about that journey...)

All this is a pleasure 5 decades delayed for me.

I'll dig into Morgoth's Ring in that section soon. (I've gotten all Tolkien digitally, so I can research and expand quickly once I get to it.)

I thank you for the kind words. I am in a similar position of sorts, in that I'm not a lifelong reader (I started reading about 2018, to much regret that it wasn't earlier). My knowledge will hardly be a fraction of the majority of this forum, that I know.

I find his writing and his world a joy that is difficult to measure, and this forum can only aid to my enjoyment. The welcome here has been very heartwarming indeed so many thanks again.

 

[Ent]

the welcome here has been very heartwarming indeed

This is good to hear.
We really try to be kind of like a family here, all working toward the same goals and objectives.
Oh there are squabbles now and again... what family is without them?
But we don't go beyond that. There is enough vitriol in the world. We're a 'vitriol free zone.' (or work to be so.)

 

[Olorgando]

So we can maybe deduce that whilst Melkor did indeed have an influence into the soils of Arda, and subsequently into the hröar of the Quendi, it had little impact of the design of The One. Elves, who perhaps thought otherwise, were always designed to fade, and unmarred or marred, this was their fate.

Morgoths Ring, Note 7​

​

'It cannot refer to the actual design of Eru, since the Themes of the Children were introduced after the arising of the discords of Melkor'. The 'waning' of the Elvish hröar must therefore be part of the History of Arda as envisaged by Eru, and the mode in which the Elves were to make way for the Dominion of Men.'​

Hostetter's NoMe provides food for thought on this topic.
In chapter IX "time-scales and Rates of Growth", there is the following on pages 64-65.

"The Quendian rate originally corresponded to the Valian {144:1 vis-a-vis Men} and it so remained in Aman. But by each act or choice which as it were allied the Quendi, or any group of them, more closely with "Arda Marred", the rate of "growth" became quicker (for the tendency towards physical decay was increased).
It is said that the Avari quickened to 100:1 as soon as the Eldar had departed; that the Nandor did likewise as soon as they forsook the March; that the Sindar did so also when they chose to remain on the Western Shores; and that finally the exiled Ñoldor were quickened in the same way as soon as they left Aman, or rather as soon as the Doom of Mandos was spoken and they persisted in their rebellion. {end-note 1}
...
It is said that after the fall of Sauron, and the beginning of the Fourth Age and the Dominion of Men, those of the Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth were again "quickened" to a rate of about 72:1, or in these latter days 48:1." {latter days not specified anywhere as per endnote 2}

There's a hitch: the end-note 1 on page 68:
"Tolkien at some later point wrote in the margin against this paragraph in red ball-point pen: "no quickening"; and apparently at the same time wrote in the space between the initial table and the first paragraph: "All this needs revision to duodecimal", also in red ball-point pen."

*sigh* 😖

 

[ZehnWaters]

Hostetter's NoMe provides food for thought on this topic.
In chapter IX "time-scales and Rates of Growth", there is the following on pages 64-65.

"The Quendian rate originally corresponded to the Valian {144:1 vis-a-vis Men} and it so remained in Aman. But by each act or choice which as it were allied the Quendi, or any group of them, more closely with "Arda Marred", the rate of "growth" became quicker (for the tendency towards physical decay was increased).
It is said that the Avari quickened to 100:1 as soon as the Eldar had departed; that the Nandor did likewise as soon as they forsook the March; that the Sindar did so also when they chose to remain on the Western Shores; and that finally the exiled Ñoldor were quickened in the same way as soon as they left Aman, or rather as soon as the Doom of Mandos was spoken and they persisted in their rebellion. {end-note 1}
...
It is said that after the fall of Sauron, and the beginning of the Fourth Age and the Dominion of Men, those of the Elves that still lingered in Middle-earth were again "quickened" to a rate of about 72:1, or in these latter days 48:1." {latter days not specified anywhere as per endnote 2}

There's a hitch: the end-note 1 on page 68:
"Tolkien at some later point wrote in the margin against this paragraph in red ball-point pen: "no quickening"; and apparently at the same time wrote in the space between the initial table and the first paragraph: "All this needs revision to duodecimal", also in red ball-point pen."

*sigh* 😖

As a writer myself, your stories are rarely DONE. They're just...released.

 

[Elthir]

We do know Elves die... and their spirit 'goes someplace.' Some are given the opportunity to be returned in bodily form such as Glorfindel. Do they return with 'the same' body they had? Or do they return in a different body? Where and how do we know.

In the very late Glorfindel Texts (GI and G2, Last Writings, POME) we learn the following:

Glorfindel I: when Elves are slain their spirits go to Mandos, are judged, and remain in the Halls of Waiting until Manwe grants them release. It was the duty of the Valar to restore the Elves to incarnate life, if they desired it -- "unless for some grave (and rare) reason: such as deeds of great evil, or any works of malice of which they remained obdurately unrepentant."

When the Elves were re-embodied, they could remain in Valinor, or return to Middle-earth if their home had been there.

[for description concerning the choice of Elven spirits to go to Mandos upon death, see Of The Laws And Customs Among The Eldar Pertaining To Marriage And Other Matters Related Thereto: Together With The Statute Of Finwe And Miriel And The Debate Of The Valar At Its Making, in Morgoth's Ring].

Glorfindel II notes that the restoration to incarnate life could be "delayed by Manwe, if the fea while alive had done evil deeds and refused to repent of them, or still harboured any malice against any other persons among the living." Footnote 8 [author's footnote] "Or in gravest cases (such as that of Feanor) withheld and referred to the One"

__________

From another late text, originally titled "Some notes on Glorfindel" (1972-3) see Elvish Reincarnation, Text 3, The Nature of Middle-Earth.

The mode of re-construction is the restoration of the former body: "But it may be noted that the Eldar held that an Elf's spirit (fea) had a complete knowledge of every detail of its body in general and in particulars peculiar to it as a unique thing. This knowledge is retained when spirit and body were divorced: in fact it then became clearer, for Elves in health seldom consciously thought about their bodies, unless that had a special interest in such "lore" . . ."

Basically, the Valar could reconstitute a body totally suitable to the deprived spirit. "And therefore "identical", though there is no space here to discuss the precise meaning of this."

Yep. Glorfindel the great!

🐾

 

[Glorfindel Goldtress]

Indeed. The Valar are just, as well as generous.

@Elthir, you take MVP (or should I say MVC?) on HoME-sourcing.

 

[Ricardo]

Thank you for your detailed reply.

Upon reading the notes on the commentary there may be an explanation detailed within, on the Elvish view that separation is not natural to them.

Quote - note 6

'But they appear to have held, and indeed still to hold, that this desire for the hröa shows that their later (and present) condition is not natural to them, and they remain in estel that Eru will heal it. 'Not natural', wether it is due wholly, as they earlier thought, to the weakening of the hröa (derived from the debility introduced by Melkor into the substance of Arda upon which it must feed), or partly due the inevitable working of a dominant fëa upon a material hröa through many ages)'​

Elves believe (and still do), that their hröa and fëa should remain in a permanent state of collaboration, until Arda ends. You can't (or rather shouldn't) have one without the other. A houseless spirit greatly desires a dwelling, and the two in their 'unmarred' state were never intended to be apart. Melkor, as he does with so many things, imposes malice on this original design through the marring of Arda.

The death of Men can be viewed as something different if we trust that their fëar are bound for elsewhere. If this is so, then there has technically been no separation, as the fëa has been housed within its time in Arda. Again Melkor's taint is cast on this, and something which should be considered a gift is now shrouded in darkness.

Andreth argues in the Athrabeth that she doesn't believe this to be in Mens nature at all, and that the two in Men should be in a permanent state of marriage, leading Finrod to his theories on Arda remade.

I agree it is highly thought provoking, but the notes do shed a bit more light, although numerous interpretations present themselves.

​

It is actually Mandos who says that, and he is referring to the elves, men still hadn't entered the picture as that was said when the Valar were deciding on the statute of Finwe and Miriel.

The Ainur cannot die because their spirits are from beyond Ea and their bodies are only garments of their choice.

Elves's fear are from beyond Ea too, but their bodies are part of Arda, that's why they can be separated (death of the body, not the fea). (notice the fear is the plural of Fea, not being scared).

Mandos said that death among elves is unnatural and it happens because Arda is marred by Morgoth. Miriel's death proves that point, she wouldn't have died in an unmarred Arda.

Miriel was the first eldar to die in Aman. At some point, Tolkien said she was the first to die, but then thought it again, thinking that some elves might have died before Orome found them, and even throughout the long journey.

Because the hroa originates in Arda, it is fragile, less fragile than men's hroa because the elves's fear are more powerful and help the hroa, but still, even in Aman elves can die. Miriel and Finwe are proof of that but there are many occasions where they could die, falling off a mountain, drowning, etc.

Men's fate is different because they got the gift of Iluvatar. Their souls are not bound to Arda and what happened to them when they die, the Valar do not know. Possibly Mandos and Manwe might know but they won't tell.

About marriage, nothing is said about men, but among elves they are supposed to last while Arda lasts. There are exceptions when one spouse dies if the deceased agree to never be re-embodied, then the union can be ended and the surviving spouse can remarry. That's the subject of the statute of Finwe and Miriel and that's why Finwe could marry Indis.

Now, how exactly the marring of Arda causes Elves to die is never explained, I think it's probably some of those meta physics topics very hard to understand.

I haven't ready the Nature of Middle Earth yet, but maybe there is more there, or in the letters.