The Greater Capacity for Hate?

[Ancalagon]

for Melkor she knew from before the making of the Music and rejected him, and he hated her, and feared her more than all others whom Eru made

This is the first expression of hatred in the Silmarillion by Melkor towards Varda in the Ainulindale. Melkor stands alone I fear in his total disdain and hatred for all else save himself. Since Dragons were only a creation of Melkor they again stem from his own capacity for hatred. Melkor first, then maybe Dragons!

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Anarchist
Tyaronumen (how the heck to you pronounce that?)
I quite agree with you. Perhaps orcs felt hatred just because they couldn't feel anything else! Their hatred was just natural to them. And when they didn't find any elve, human or tree to express their hatred and anger they killed each other (remember when Frodo and Sam where in Mordor, how the orcs kept fighting each other for unimportant reasons).

Pronunciation is 'tye-are-o-NUMEN' -- Agent of the West in Quendi.

I always thought of the Orcs as being the ultimate 'abuse victims'... which is to say, I have always somehow felt that in an entirely different environment (and with NO exposure to the evil of Melkor), an Orc might demonstrate the capacity for creativity -- after all, the Orcs are also the Children of Iluvatar... just isolated from the grace of Eru (at least I envision it as a sort of percieved isolation... a lot of fear comes from the sensation of being alone)...

 

[Tyaronumen]

Originally posted by Ancalagon


This is the first expression of hatred in the Silmarillion by Melkor towards Varda in the Ainulindale. Melkor stands alone I fear in his total disdain and hatred for all else save himself. Since Dragons were only a creation of Melkor they again stem from his own capacity for hatred. Melkor first, then maybe Dragons!

Hmmm -- I wonder... if Melkor did not hate himself as well? This seems to me to be something of a pre-condition for true hatred of others...

Anyhow, it does seem clear to me that Melkor's part in the making of the Music is the part that sparks hatred in the Children -- whether it be Orc, Elf, or otherwise, but that Melkor himself is not likely to be the origin of the hatred that is within the Children.

For if this were so, then would not Manwe and Varda, Aule and Yavanna, et al. have given similar gifts to the Children? But we know that that these Children are more as 'peers' to the Valar than their 'children', and that the Children sprang from the conception of Iluvatar, and not the Valar... thus, their capacity for hatred comes from Iluvatar just as surely as does Morgoth Bauglir's...

Which leads me to wonder if it is true that Morgoth's *capacity* for hatred was actually *greater* than any other being in creation? Or if simply the *realization* of his hatred was greater, simply because of his inherent power.

Could it not be possible that the hatred of Sauron, or even of Ugluk, was as great as that of Morgoth -- simply tempered by the relative weakness of the individual exhibiting the emotion?

Just some thoughts that popped into my head when you wrote...

 

[Ancalagon]

Hmmm -- I wonder... if Melkor did not hate himself as well?

Interesting point, though I always harbored the thought that Melkor loved himself, above all else, even Iluvatar, whom he undoubtedly loathed also!

I suppose this aain touches on the Melkor, Evil by Will....thread, though I envisage some distinct differences in the origin.

One wonders if the capacity for hatred is a result of the division of gifts among the Ainur; that each sang their own gifts, emotion and feelings into the song, but each struggled in a more subtle way than the struggle of Melkor against Eru. Did each of the Ainur try to force their version of the song into a theme of the stronger part of their own nature; in turn this gave rise to a more intricate, un-noticeable discord, hidden beneath that of Melkors?

Whew, this is getting deep; even for me! Did the Ainur create hatred among races, because of their theme; because within the races, some were more drawn to certain traits and similarities of the Ainur than of others?
I suppose another point in fact was Yvanna's creation of Ents as defenders of the Trees, against Men, Dwarves and Orcs! Although this was after the song of the Ainur, it was still a tangible reaction to the threat posed by other races.

Does all this emanate from the mind of Eru? I think so and will always maintain so!

 

[Anarchist]

Just a thought about this topic you guys just brought up. The hatred Morgoth felt most probably came from Eru himself. It is I believe nessessary for the balance in the universe. Goodness in balance with evil. Since there are a lot "good" Valar, perhaps Morgoth needed to be so much evil to maintain the balance. Keep on.

 

[Tyaronumen]

Well, an important factor of note is that hatred is merely the absence of love and not a thing in and of itself.

In this regard it is very similar to darkness... Darkness *itself* cannot be perceived with the usual visual senses because our visual sense requires a stimulus - light. And when you introduce light, there is darkness no longer.

Yes, hatred is merely the absence of love...

 

[Khamul]

From the Book of Lost Tales 2: The Fall of Gondolin
"These," said they, "are the confines of those regions which Melko infesteth with Goblins, the PEOPLE OF HATE.

I'm going with Orcs have the greater amount of hatred.