the haradrim

[j0n4th4n]

i loved the way the haradrim and easterlings were depicted. there was a different air to them than the other bad guys (including the wild-men). they was a certain dignity about them,and a grim exoticness.. the way their mouths were covered up( perhaps to protect them from the foul smoke of mordor) was wonderful.
also i got a definate feeling of their alliance to sauron as being based on threats/deciet/force rather than simpathy with him.

another amazing part of the film (very un-hollywood) was grima wormtongue's tear after being shown saruman's army.

 

[Confusticated]

I don't know why their mouths were covered. If it was only to protect from the air of Mordor I don't think they would have been covered at that point. For one, they were well outside of Mordor, and if they were heading for the Black gate they had a ways to go. Also, Faramir's people didn't seem to have any problem with the air right there, but more importantly Frodo and Sam didn't mention it.

 

[j0n4th4n]

there are two scenes which they appear - one is when frodo and sam are hiding under the cloak (which looks like a rock) - this is right outside the black gate, the haradrim are going in. perhaps you didn't notice they were men. thats another thing i like about this scene - the only way you can tell is by their eyes

you are right though, the oliphaunt scene must have been quite far away.

 

[morello13]

aat hte balck they were easterlings of khand not southrons

 

[PRH]

Originally posted by morello13
aat hte balck they were easterlings of khand not southrons

Khand, or Rhun? I thought "Easterlings" were from Rhun.

And the Haradrim were the one's with the oliphaunt.

I think the faces were covered just to make them look ominious and to make their race non-descript. If the film showed all the Haradrim as black men and the Easterlings as Asian, it might stir a racial controversy around the movie.

I can never tell because it goes by so quick, but is the Haradrim man who falls at Sam's feet a black actor? Or is he maybe Maiori?

 

[Bucky]

>>>>there are two scenes which they appear - one is when frodo and sam are hiding under the cloak (which looks like a rock) - this is right outside the black gate, the haradrim are going in.

No, as previously stated, they are 'Easterlings', said in the Battle of The Pelannor Fields to be armed with axes.
And, no, they are not from Khand.
Wouldn't soldiers from Khand just enter through Southern Mordor?

The ones with the Oliphants, they were Haradrim.

The Haradrim, however, can be broken into 3 groups:

Corsairs of Umbar
Near Harad
Far Harad.

As Harad is generally accepted as being Africa, I have always had this take:

Near Harad = Northern Africa & The Middle East, meaning Arabian type people. The guy killed at Sam & Frodo's feet was not a 'black' man in the 'African' sense. In the book & movie, he had long hair, no mention of skin color in the book. In the movie, he sure didn't look like a black man to me.

Far Harad: Tolkien makes a point of describing these folk as 'out of Far Harad, black men like half trolls with white eyes & red tongues' (I can see the PC's cringing at that one).

Likewise, somebody here last year pointed out that the Easterlings are described as 'swertings' or 'swarthy', whatever the exact quote is (I couldn't find it). But, in that debate, the dictionary left no doubt that those words used to describe the Easterlings meant they had yellow skin & slanted eyes if I remember correctly.

So, in Tolkien's age of the dominant white man, such mindsets were accepted as the norm.
In the politically correct world that PJ is making this movie, it's a time bomb to have all the minorities be the bad guys.....

 

[Confusticated]

j0n4th4n... I did notice that the soldiers entering through the Black gate were men, but I was confused because I knew they were Easterlings whereas you were talking about Southrons.
So, does your first post talk about the Southrons or Easerlings? or both?

As Harad is generally accepted as being Africa...

... I know what you mean, but this quote had me laughing aloud, or maybe I've been awake 6 hours too long.

I think swarthy means 'dark' more than 'yellow' though.

 

[PRH]

Movie mistake (I think) - shouldn't the Easterlings be coming from Rhun and hence the East and not the South? In the movie, it shows them approaching from the South.

 

[Confusticated]

Yep, it shows them coming from the south, or west. I don't recall which route the Easterlings took in the book. It seems to me that they could have entered Mordor from the east, but maybe I'm forgetting something.
Khand is as far south as near Harad is I remember correctly, so men from Khand could just as easily reach the Black Gate by traveling west and then north, rather than north and then west.
I remember that when Frodo looks out east from Cerin Amroth, or perhaps it was from Amon Hen... he sees great wastelands, so it could be that even the Easterlings didn't travel through that land.
One thing I've wondered about is that one of the soldiers (maybe Faramir) said that men were pouring into Mordor every day, so it seems to be that the Haradrim and Easerlings would meet eachother on the road, but when we see the troops they are not mingled. Surely if the Easterlings were reaching the black gate from the south they would be aiding the haradrim in battle.. but they were nowhere to be found.

 

[morello13]

heres my explanantion for syaing they were easterlings of khand
http://thetolkien.forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=7870

 

[Confusticated]

I see, and you were correct in your post above, those at the balck gate were easterlings.
By the way, anyone interested in why the easerlings came to the gate from the south should also check that link, there aragil explains more about Khand, and mentions Rhun too.

 

[PRH]

The term "Easterling" describes men from Rhûn, not Khand. Here is my justification:

He now was destroyed; but Gothmog the lieutenant of Morgul had flung them into the fray; Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.

This is a list of different forces, Easterlings are named separately from folk of Khand (I don't know what a Variag is).

But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West.

JRRT is naming the two groups twice under their different names, Men of Harad = Southron and Men of Rhûn = Easterling.

 

[Confusticated]

Easterlings with axes, and Variags of Khand. Southrons in scarlet, and out of Far Harad black men like half-trolls with white eyes and red tongues.

Here it also seems that far Haradrim were named seperate of the Southrons.
Would this mean that they are not Southrons? Or that Khand are Easerlings too?
Tolkien has grouped the two by naming them as Easterlings and Haradrim, so I think Haradrim and Southron are words used synomynously, yet they're named separate in that quote you provided.

I think Southron is just a general term for men of the south and Easerling a term for men of the east, Variags of Khand are both south and east, perhaps more east, so i think they could rightfully be called Easterlings.

 

[PRH]

I think rather that it means that Haradrim (aka Southrons) and men out of Far Harad and not synonomous.

The other quote is much more telling, but this one is the only mention of Khand, except for this:

Many of the Wainriders now passed south of Mordor and made alliance with men of Khand and of Near Harad; and in this great assault from north and south, Gondor came near to destruction.

which tells nothing.

 

[Confusticated]

I don't think the second quote is very telling..

But the Men of Rhûn and of Harad, Easterling and Southron, saw the ruin of their war and the great majesty and glory of the Captains of the West.

What if we replace the words?

"But the people of Rivendell and of the shire, elves and hobbits..."

This does not mean that Lothlorien are not elves.

 

[PRH]

Oh no? Well let's go at it this way: Where are folk from the country of Khand ever associated with the term Easterling?

And geographically speaking, the land of Khand is adjacent to Near Harad (south) while Rhun is to the extreme east.

 

[morello13]

khand is alos the same distance east as rhun and as far south as harondor

 

[Bucky]

>>>>I think swarthy means 'dark' more than 'yellow' though.

I don't remember the discussion's thread name, or who was in it, but I took the stance that there was nothing to my knowledge to indicate hat Easterlings were 'oriental' or 'monguls' (see Genghas Kahn) as the other fellow called them.
However, when he produced the exact quote (I couldn't find it but I think it's in Appendix A), and we looked up the words, it left no doubt that the Easterlings were indeed 'oriental' people.

As for the Easterlings approaching from the Southern road, is it possible they had to march around the 2 'slag hills' that Frodo was hiding in?
Didn't Aragorn approach the black gate from the 'north & east' in the book though?
That would certainly mean the Easterlings could approach that way, so I don't have a clue what PJ did there, but honestly, it wouldn't be the biggest departure from the book that PJ has made.

But, regardless of where they approached from, they were Easterlings at the Black Gate & they were 'Southrons' who were attacked by the men of Gondor.