The Possibility of Morgoth's Return

[Server Room Gremlin]

Here is a very interesting video I found, examining Tolkien's writings and speculating on the possibility of Morgoth's return in Arda's future. This idea is brought up: Númenor could have been destroyed because they aimed to overthrow the Valar and thus allow Morgoth to return sooner (as they believed Sauron's lies that Morgoth would give them immortality).

 

[Ricardo]

Yeah, for some reason there have been a lot of noise lately about the Dagor Dagorath.

But I believe that Tolkien abandoned that idea and that's why it wasn't added to the Silmarillion except for some vague mentions.

The story is interesting but full of inconsistencies. If tolkien had decided it to be part of the legendarium it would have probably been completely rewritten.

The idea of Turin killing Morgoth (when an Ainur cannot be killed) it's too far fetched, first it is Hurin the one who suffered the most but, after Morgoth is killed, what happens to Turin? Even if he is granted inmoratility and to live in Valinor, his family is still death, his wife was his sister and they cannot be together knowing that. After all Turin took his own life. Maybe he was just there to take revenge on Morgoth and then disappeared, it's not said.

In the end, the trees are regrown by Yavanna, using the silmarils that Feanor breaks to give her the light, the Valar level the Pelori so the light can reach all of Arda (there is no sun or moon anymore) but for that, Arda would have to once again be flat. The trees aren't moving around the world.

This is incompatible with Tolkien's later thought that the Legendarium is to be considered and very early history of our own World. At the end of the DD there is not an evolution but a complete reset.

 

[Elthir]

Yeah, for some reason there have been a lot of noise lately about the Dagor Dagorath. But I believe that Tolkien abandoned that idea and that's why it wasn't added to the Silmarillion except for some vague mentions.

Welcome Ricardo! Over the years I've annoyed plenty of folk (all over the web) with the following distinction, annoying as it must be. It's my distinction yes, but I think it can be backed up by the "evidence", such as it is.

We know Tolkien abandoned the Second Prophecy of Mandos; even Christopher Tolkien comments (in Morgoth's Ring) that the Second Prophecy was "definitively" abandoned. But we -- or I at least -- don't know if Tolkien certainly abandoned the content of this prophecy, given that, in Morgoth's Ring again, JRRT re-characterized it as a Mannish Myth.

And in my opinion, the prophecy of Andreth (Mannish Prophecy) at least casts an arguable measure of doubt with respect to a role for Turambar, even if the mannish myth was upheld (meant to be part of the legendarium) -- as, according to Andreth, Turambar comes back from the dead to slay Ancalagon at the Wrathy War.

Could the legendarium contain both a Mannish Prophecy and a Mannish Myth in which Túrin gets some measure of revenge? I think it could, but this is pure conjecture. Moreover, Arda Healed could "now" -- meaning in Tolkien's later years -- be attributed to other ideas besides what was found in the former prophecy.

Why abandon the prophecy specifically? Partly, I think, because if JRRT puts these statements in the Mouth of Mandos himself, whatever he says is very arguably to be seen as certainly to come about.

The trees aren't moving around the world.

Good point! I suppose it's also possible that "a given" Mannish Myth might include a flat-world scenario; but then again, it's also merely possible that someday I'll shut up about the Dagor Dagorath, and the Second Prophecy.

 

[Ricardo]

I think that the legendarium is so incredibly complex that even a life time wasn't enough to finish, and Tolkien needed to prioritize what he was working on. Fitting the DD with the rest would have required significant rewritings that he didn't have time to do (he wanted to finish the Silmarillion)

Maybe if Tolkien had lived a few years later, with the help of computer he could have organized his work better, but there were tons of manuscripts, notes, margin notes, rewrites that it was almost impossible to follow. In some cases Tolkien found inconsistencies that were hastily amended but not fully (e.g. the parentage of Gil Galad, the origin of orcs). As I said, the DD would mean contradicting many of Tolkien's latest ideas. It's a shame because it would have been a nice conclusion.

 

[Elthir]

Right, but the thing with a Mannish Myth is, it doesn't have to be in concert with what the Wise of Aman (for example) say or write about the World (or the Sun). Which doesn't mean I'm proposing that Christopher Tolkien should have included it in his Silmarillion, or that JRR Tolkien would have, in his. . . but anyway.

Aside: I also think that section 32 (conclusion) of Quenta Silmarillion (The Lost Road) can be read without necessarily coming to the conclusion that the World was once flat: ". . . Mountains of Valinor shall be levelled, so that the Light shall go out over all the world." . . .

. . . meaning, as I also argue with respect to Bombadil's "before the seas were bent", if section 32 is read without any flat-world scenario in mind, I think the average reader will not assume a flat world, and will read this as either poetic, or "magical", or that "Eru provides that it should be so" (that the Light of the Trees will somehow light the whole round world).

For whatever that's worth, besides me posting. . . something!

 

[Ricardo]

those are good insights, but I think the light of the trees could not reach all of Arda as a physics problem.

There are many more problems, Aman and Eressea were moved a different plane, a different dimension if you like, and their place in Arda was occupied by new continents. We all agree that Middle Earth is roughly Europe, so Aman would be North America, I doubt the new continent would just be overrun to place Aman back.

My own interpretation is that it's possible that Aman remained outside of Arda, the trees are there and perhaps from that plane they could project the light everywhere. Surely there is a lot of magic here that defies the laws of physics, but hey, we don't really have dragons, or elves, or orcs or balrogs, so to hell with reality . This is the Tolkien's universe, not the real one.

Having said that, if I imagine something about the legendarium that was expressly said by Tolkien, I want it to fit with the rest, make sense within the rules set by Tolkien himself. The point is, Iluvatar is always a wildcard because he can do anything. We also don't have tree that emit divine light so it's perfectly possible that those magic trees could spread the light everywhere without changing Arda.