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The Rings of Power

Re: of the elven rings

The quote from UT below answers most of your questions. Concerning Galadriel and Celeborn is one of the most informative chapters in any of Tolkien's books and is well worth the read. There is much more bt this gives you the basic information. The 9 and 7 were indeed taken from the Elves in Eregion by Sauron... but the 3 had already been bestowed to Galadriel and Gil-galad. Hope this helps.
 
Celebrimbor, desperate, himself withstood Sauron on the steps of the great door of the Mírdain; but he was grappled and taken captive, and the House was ransacked

I know this is a side track, but this passage made me think... doesn't it seem as if Sauron was leading his army? Contradicting the 'wisdom' of Denethor, that the great leaders stand at the back?

Is it possible that Sauron's earlier form was not as cowardly? Third Age Sauron is a coward, we know that. On the other hand, 'Sauron' in the quote above may be just a figure of speech, as in "Bush will fight Iraq" (please note I am not comparing Bush with Sauron!!).

What do you think?
 

Can it be that this matter of was such great importance to him that he wanted to be there himself and have the pleasure of slaying his main foes and capturing their hands' work?
 
If you read the all the passages in UT and other blurbs scattered throughout HoMe, there is absolutely no doubt that Sauron was actively involved in the war to recover the Rings of Power. Further on in the account I already quoted, it speaks of the Numenorean fleet rescuing Gil-galad's beleaguered forces at the Grey Havens and also coming to Elrond's aid in Imladris. It also speaks of Sauron barely escaping capture by the advancing Numenorean army. I am also just as certain that Sauron was not a coward in the Third Age. I think his physical form in the Third Age was not as powerful as it had been in prior times and he had learned not to confront Man or Elf in person unless absolutely necessary. Sauron fought against the might of Goodness until the very end.
One must also remember that the Sauron that lead his army against the Gwaith-i-Mirdain was a Sauron who had never been unhoused. By the end of the Third Age he had been dehoused twice (once at the fall of Numenor and once when defeated by Gil-galad and Elendil).

Sauron's valiant defiance of the People's of Middle-earth is illustrated right up to the point where he utterly defeated. A perfect example of this courage is illustrated at the very end of the Last Battle in the Third Age where the text states: That last defiant act, is hardly the act of a coward.

I encourage anyone who wishes to know more of this to specifically read The Unfinished Tales and also Peoples of Middle-earth. There is much in these two books which gives more clarity to these issues. It must also be understood that Tolkien never finalized any of these tales. We have many different accounts of the way and time in which these things happened. Christopher Tolkien has sought to arrange them in the manner that he felt his father had ultimately "decided" that they should appear... but we will never really know.
 
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Ok, it seems I used the word 'coward' carelessly... but Sauron was definitely not 'brave'. 'Cunning', perhaps, but he never showed personal courage, he only got involved in a fight if he was pretty sure he'd win or if he was forced to do it. His only mistake in this regard was Huan -- and this was a misjudgment, not a brave act, he thought he would beat Huan in a fight. Compare with the 'good' leaders. Even Denethor, the only leader who 'stays in the back', had taken part in battles in his youth (I gather this from his rivalry with Thorongil, and especially from his use of armour). Sauron, on the other hand, even in the first age, never faced willingly an even fight -- again the exception being Huan (and it must have been a surprise to him, Maia that he was, to be beaten by Huan). Anyway, this is just a matter of the word used (I think) -- coward is perhaps too strong, but he is not brave...

Or do you think he's brave, Grond? I don't want to sound too definite here.
 
LOL! I didn't mean to come off holier than thou in my response. I was just stating some facts in the works which support that Sauron wasn't afraid to take personal action when circumstances warrranted. As he consumed more of his finite power in rebuilding himself, he definately chose to use others to act for him rather than to get involved personally where he might again come to personal harm.

As far as your Huan comparison. You might not know it, but good ole Huan was deemed by most scholars to also be a Maia. He was originally a servant / vassal of Orome and certainly showed a lot more angelic power than any ordinary canine.

Your opinion actually isn't far from mine. Sauron was cunning and an expert in using any tools at his disposal to further first his Dark Lord's aims and later his own devious and evil plans. I, personally, find it hard to assign traits such as bravery or cowardice to angelic beings who don't fear or suffer the same emotions, fates, etc. as we mere mortals.
 
No grudge from me . I am aware of the 'Huan/Maia' speculation, but I don't think it holds water... and even if he was a Maia, he was much weaker than Sauron, being 'forcibly incarnate', much as the later wizards -- I don't think he had the option to 'unhouse' (is that the correct word?) as an ordinary Maia could. I have a small resistance to this concept of Maiar leaving descendants, not in the case of Huan, but in the Eagles and in the Steeds of Oromë that would after many generations beget Shadowfax -- some people have suggested that they are Maiar too, but it doesn't click (for me). And I don't think Huan would be a greater spirit than Thorondor. This is probably being argued right now by people more learned than me in a more proper thread...

But probably Sauron thought he would have an easy time against Huan anyway... big mistake .
 
There is no canon rule on whether Maia could procreate. Tolkien bounced back and forth on the concept thoughout his writings. At first, Gothmog was the son of Melkor. Eonwe was the son of Manwe and Varda. As it stood in the published Silmarillion, only Melian of all the Ea bound was said to have procreated with Elu Thingol. This leaves tons of loose ends. First we have Shelob, who is identified as the last spawn of Ungoliant... yet the published Silmarillion says this of Ungoliant. This seems to be a direct reference to the following quote. And, finally, we have this as well. I have always considered that Ungoliant and Huan were of the angelic powers, else how does one explain their might? Fingolfin put up a pretty good fight against Melkor but Huan totally bested Sauron. Ungoliant had Melkor in fear for his very being. Sure, she was bloated from her jewel/light diet... but I think it shows that they (Ungoliant and Huan) were definately more than something that was simply "of Ea". But... that is just my humble opinion. That and $4.50 will get you a Cafe Latte at Starbucks.
 
I agree completely with this:


I also think they are 'spirits', not of Eä... I only think they are not Maiar. Does that make sense? Were all Ainur either Valar or Maiar? I really should check this on the Ainulindalë/Valaquenta, but I don't have a copy here (or within 30 miles ). Couldn't they be Ainur, but not be Maiar? The procreation of Maiar without a 'created' strand (such as the case of Melian) leaves all sort of dead ends, most specially since 'Evil can not create' -- couldn't the evil Maiar under Melkor just outbreed the other Ainur otherwise? Perhaps even researching cloning... The main trouble would be the origin of Maiar spirits. Of course we will never know Tolkien's own thoughts, but I think this would be a mighty objection to the concept of breeding Maiar, and one he would take into account. From his letters it appears he put a great amount of thought into these spiritual (really theological) matters, even when he was claiming to 'just write a story'.
 
My understanding of Tolkien's opinion on your hypothesis is that once an Ainur ascended into Ea, he was bound forever to it. He lost the ability to leave. He became one of the Maia. I have researched this on another thread on this very forum, some time ago. I'll look for the thread tonight and see what my "quote search" came up with then.

I honestly believe there were no other angelic spirits on Ea other than the Valar and Maiar, it wouldn't make sense... and Tolkien's world typically makes very logical sense.
 
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