The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

Ainulindalë and Greek Mythology II

From Classical Gods and Heroes: Myths as Told by the Ancient Authors:

First of all Chaos came into being, and the Gaea, the broad Earth, the ever certain support of all the deathless gods who dwell on the summit of snowy Olympus, and also dark Tartarus in the innermost part of the broad-pathed earth, and also Eros, the fairest of the immortal gods, who relaxes the limbs and overpowers the resolution and thoughtful determination in the hearts of all the gods and all mankind.
From Chaos came both Erebus and Nyx, the black Night, and of Nys there were born Aether and Hemera, the Day, whom she bore to Erebus in a union of Love. And Gaea first of all brought forth an equal to herself, Uranus, the starry Heaven, to cover her about on all sides and to be an ever certain dwelling place for the blessed gods.

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As told in Greek verse by Hesiod
In this version, there is no supreme God who makes or order the universe, which is a primary difference between the Ainulindalë of Tolkien.
Also, with the rebellion of Cronus and then his becoming of the supreme god, it contrast too with the Ainulindalë and the Silmarillion in general that Rebellion is rewarded with the fact that both Cronus and Zeus (who both rebelled at their fathers), they both became the supreme beings of their respective world, unlike that of the Silmarillion where Melkor is at the end cast into the Void.

I'd like to suggest another parallel for world creation...it's a bit off the beaten track of Biblical symbols and Greek mythology.
One of the innumerable versions of world creation in Egyptian myths says:
In the beginning there was nothing but Nun(chaos) and then Toth,the one and only,creator of everything,made a sound with his mouth.This first sound came into shape and it gave birth to the first creatures.They were four pairs (4 males & 4 females,husbands and wives),named The Great Eight.They sang along with him and from their sounds all that lives was born and the Earth was created...
Sounds familiar,eh?

Well I've read almost everything that is posted and I must confess it's very interesting.It is really hard to decide who is wright,but here I'll anwser the questions as I see their answers.
I'm not going to use quotes,because they are already used.
1-Melkor is the most capable and ambitiuos Ainu.He realizes he is the most powerful Ainu and that makes him overestimate his real abilities.As it's said he wants to emulate Eru.Usually a person who has more abilities than the others.that is why Melkor desire for things created by him.He is impatient and his impatience,combined with his ambitions,makes him rebel.At the beginning he is not an evil person,and I agree the void makes him bad.I think Melkor,just like Feanor,is so ambitiuos that he just forgets what is good and what is bad.Because of his wish of creating things of his own imagination,he is embarked upon the road of evil.And there is no way back.
2-Well,I think the beginning is strictly defined by Eru's thoughts .i believe Iluvatar knows about Melkor's rebellion and that is part of his plan.First Ainur should prove their abilities to rule the world.What is more,Arda is created for people and the time of people's dominion will come.Melko's rebellions and the battles of elves,people and him are part of Edain's development(just like the III ages when people have to survive and defeat sauron).Finally no doubt Iluvatar know what will happen,he is able to predict Ainiur's actions and everything is part of his plan.
3-I agree with Confusticated that Melkor might have had pride before he was put to shame.He realized his powerful and that made him proud of himself.Then he rebelled and you know what happened.
4-I read carefully everything about this question and it's really hard to decide whose point of view is correct.It seemed to me that the children of Iluvatar weren't a response to the discord of Melkor.Why Arda was made:for Eru's children.And he had thought about Ea before Melkor rebelled.
5-I believe Ainur had different characters and those of them who possesed most abilities were enthralled to the idea of going to Arda.They wanted to join themselves with the fate of the world mostly bacause of the children of Iluvatar.
6-everybody knows the answer of this question I think.It is obvious there is a connection between Iluvatar's instructions and Ulmo's acts.But did Iluvatar predict Ulmo would love people or he ordered him what to do?
7-Yes.
8-I don't know what Ainur would do if they stay wuth Eru,but it seems to me more interesting to go in Arda than to stay with him.
The last two questions I'll write next Friday ,if the discussion is still open.

Originally posted by Melian
I'd like to suggest another parallel for world creation...it's a bit off the beaten track of Biblical symbols and Greek mythology.
One of the innumerable versions of world creation in Egyptian myths says:
In the beginning there was nothing but Nun(chaos) and then Toth,the one and only,creator of everything,made a sound with his mouth.This first sound came into shape and it gave birth to the first creatures.They were four pairs (4 males & 4 females,husbands and wives),named The Great Eight.They sang along with him and from their sounds all that lives was born and the Earth was created...
Sounds familiar,eh?

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wow,this is quite interesting.
But I have a question cause it's not clear to me who is the highest god in Egyptian mythology.Isn't it Amun Re?If it's he,why Toth is the only creator of everythig?

Originally posted by Melian
In the beginning there was nothing but Nun(chaos) and then Toth,the one and only,creator of everything,made a sound with his mouth.This first sound came into shape and it gave birth to the first creatures.They were four pairs (4 males & 4 females,husbands and wives),named The Great Eight.They sang along with him and from their sounds all that lives was born and the Earth was created...
Sounds familiar,eh?

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So shockingly similar!
And hear what I have heard the other day:
Hypnos (the God of dreams in the Greek mythology) was a brother to the God of Death.......Sounds familliar?..... Lyrien and Mandos?

Gil,---Amun Re,Isis,Osiris,Nechbeth,Bastheth,Muth ,to name but a few,have been the highest gods in the Egyptian pantheon throguhout different spans of time.Each pharaoh appointed his or her most beloved god as the highest for the whole country and ultimately a new myth of world creation with the participation of that very god was made up.(It was a shock when Akhenaten tried to introduce monotheism with the cult to Aten,but poor Egyptians had to consider the pharaoh's will).As far as Toth is concerned, according to the "Book of the Dead",he was an amazing character (and many believe he was not of a terrestrial origin).Of course,he has been the highest god for some time as well.But to me he's the greatest (btw,he's maybe the equivalent of Greek Hermes Trismegistus)....

Lhun,---yaeah,it sounds quite familiar.

Originally posted by Melian
As far as Toth is concerned, according to the "Book of the Dead",he was an amazing character (and many believe he was not of a terrestrial origin).Of course,he has been the highest god for some time as well.

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Mel, "Stargate"-II ?

I have feared to ask this question because I think it could be too foolish. But here goes: Is there any chance that some of the Ainur who remained with Iluvatar are actually the spirits (fëar, to use Tolkien's word) of men?
I haven't been able to rule this out. Maybe someone else will.

I don't think so, Nym.......How could it be...
After all, Eru created Men long time after the Ainur.
No, I see the Ainur as spirits, as some form of energy, capable of transforming into various shapes. This form, I think, is the most appropriate for the place called "the halls of Illuvatar", which I understand as the Universe....where energy "dwells" in all its forms and by its laws of existance and acting.
To back up this understanding comes the fact that whenever a body of an Ainu (Vala or Maia) or of an Elf is destroyed a spirit is released. Some of these released spirits may take another shape, others (especially those of evil nature) are diminished and they have to wait until they "gain power " again, which fact, if based on my understanding of the Ainur being some form of cosmic energy, can be understood that as some energy is lost at its shape having been destroyed, it needs some period of time in order to gain power, sort of "re-charge". This may explain why the Elves had to wait in the halls of Mandos, why the spirit of Melkor could not enter Arda for ages...etc.
Now, Men, being created in a similar way, seem to have spirits, too. But here I see two possibilities:
1/ Men, being somehow inferior creatures, have spirits that do not have the power to re-enter a new shape (body) and at leaving the destroyed body, this "second-hand" spirit flies back into the Void and is there dissolved ... perhaps their energy feeds that of the greater spirits.
2/Men are some very special creatures, whose life-energy is only a part of a whole one and when the body (shape) is destroyed, that little portion of the ONE whole energy flies back to its origin and stays there.

Nym,how is possible some of Ainur to be spirits of men,when men were created later than Ainur?It's interesting question,be more specific and tell us why do you think so?

Originally posted by Lhunithiliel
So shockingly similar!
And hear what I have heard the other day:
Hypnos (the God of dreams in the Greek mythology) was a brother to the God of Death.......Sounds familliar?..... Lyrien and Mandos?

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]
Hey Lhun,where did you hear that?Probably watching a TV game :"Risk wins,risk loses"?Yes Hypnos and Hades(is it written correct?) were brothers.I had never heard that before I watched this tv game

A lot of similarities but Tolkien was well-read after all.

[color=300CC]And hear what I have heard the other day:
Hypnos (the God of dreams in the Greek mythology) was a brother to the God of Death.......Sounds familliar?..... Lórien and Mandos?[/color]

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Very interesting. I hadn't thought of that. But the god of Death in Greek Mythology is Thanatos, brother of Hypnos, they both serve Hades, who is the god of the underworld, brother of Zeus.

Originally posted by Maedhros
Very interesting. I hadn't thought of that. But the god of Death in Greek Mythology is Thanatos, brother of Hypnos, they both serve Hades, who is the god of the underworld, brother of Zeus.

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Hey that means...........I want my money back from that stupid gameee!!!!!

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
]
Hey Lhun,where did you hear that?Probably watching a TV game :"Risk wins,risk loses"?Yes Hypnos and Hades(is it written correct?) were brothers.I had never heard that before I watched this tv game

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Yes, G-G! I heard it there. But the exact words were "Hypnos was brother of the God of Death in the Greek mythology". So I guess Maedhros has made it clearer. .... If I'm not mistaken, it's Hades that is actually the keeper of the underworld, therefore he is Zaus'es brother. Perhaps Thanatos was more occupied with the death itself... Oh! Sorry! I have lent my book to one of my students and she hasn't returned it yet, so I can't check for detailes!

Nóm (not 'Nym', like I've seen it spelt! ), I think your idea might not be completely impossible if there had been billions of Ainur who stayed with Ilúvatar (I understood from your theory that each Ainu would inhabit a single human); but as I have understood it, there were only few AInur even created, and many fewer stayed with Eru. I'd say 50 at most, including the Valar.
But wow, I can't believe how close that Egyptian legend is to the Ainulindalë.. A very interesting thread altogether!

Originally posted by Gil-Galad
Nym,how is possible some of Ainur to be spirits of men,when men were created later than Ainur?It's interesting question,be more specific and tell us why do you think so?

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Because, from where did the fear of men come?
We know there were Ainur who remained behind, but for what?

Lhunithliel said:
After all, Eru created Men long time after the Ainur.
No, I see the Ainur as spirits, as some form of energy, capable of transforming into various shapes. This form, I think, is the most appropriate for the place called "the halls of Illuvatar", which I understand as the Universe....where energy "dwells" in all its forms and by its laws of existance and acting.

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True that Ainur existed long before men, though is it not true that they existed quite a while (so far as I know there is no implications of the lenthg of time) before there were Valar?

The Ainur would best be described by me as "spirits" too.
I also think that they dwell in the universe, though perhaps they spend time in human bodies on Imbar.

Lhunithiliel also said
Now, Men, being created in a similar way, seem to have spirits, too. But here I see two possibilities:
1/ Men, being somehow inferior creatures, have spirits that do not have the power to re-enter a new shape (body) and at leaving the destroyed body, this "second-hand" spirit flies back into the Void and is there dissolved ... perhaps their energy feeds that of the greater spirits.
2/Men are some very special creatures, whose life-energy is only a part of a whole one and when the body (shape) is destroyed, that little portion of the ONE whole energy flies back to its origin and stays there.

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Part of a whole? Could well be.
I believe that each Ainu is part of a whole as well.
Flies back to it's origin?...and where might this be if not someplace in Ea...where you also believe the Ainur dwell?
Joins the whole? Makes sense to me.
If the fea of men is from outside Arda, and it's destiny is outside of Arda...why couldn't they be Ainur passing through?
I believe it was Ancalagon's thread Pillar of the Heavens which turned to some talk about the Elves being closer to the Valar while men are closer to Iluvatar...I do not recall if this was stated or if what was said just left me with this thought.
The thread caused me to notice something awhile back: I think that elves (crafters) are more like the Valar, while men (creators), are more like Iluvatar.
Elves like Vala are bound within Arda, while men are not. We know that the non-Valar Ainur are not bound within Arda, but who is to say that they can not enter into it at some point?

The thing is, that to me it seems to fit, so I ask you for evidence against it. So far only Lantarion has presented some. Though, I question his.
Lantarion: You guess the number of the Ainur to be 50, why?
I think the big question to ask here is, did Tolkien ever write that the Ainur who stayed behind never enter Arda? Or that they were without the ability to ever enter?
We know that Tulkas did it.
The other big question, did he ever say from where the fear of men came?
Surely others have thought of this idea before I did? People who've been reading Tolkien's books for years? I honestly don't see how everyone can miss this, which is why I think they didn't but have disproven it, so there must be evidence (strong evidence) against it. Else we woud have heard this theory by now.

**To Avoid the forbidden double-post**

The idea as it relates to the conversation between Finrod and Andreth.
Men are quests.
1)What men love things it is because it reminds them of something dearer, and it is familiar.
2)Whereas elves love the thing for it's self and as something new to them.
3)The hroar and Fear of elves are of Arda.
4)The fear of men is different than that of elves.

Now these are some points that Finrod agrees with, and Andreth some (if not all) of them.
Of course this is the word of charactors within the tale.
All of these points fit smoothly with the idea that men are Ainur, as far as I can see.
Futhermore though I do not recall anything from this conversation that contradicts the theory.
1) I would say that they may be reminded of the music that they made.
(this calls to mind a possible contradiction to the theory in question)
2) Elves do not have this familiarity because they were not present for the music.
3) hroa and fea of an elf is of arda
4) if the fear of men is different, how so? Perhaps different in that it is of Arda, making them quests.


Contradiction noted above:
From Aindulindale in The Silmarillion.

Never since have the Ainur made any music like to this music, though it has been said that a greater still shall be made before Ilúvatar by the choirs of the Ainur and the Children of Ilúvatar after the end of days.

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Here the Ainur and the children are seperated.

Nóm, your idea is that the Ainur that remained with Ilúvatar and didn’t enter Ea are embodied as Men and live for a short time in Ea, until their hroa and fear get separated. And you challenge us to bring evidence against it, probably thinking that an argument that can’t be rejected rationally, must be correct. The problem is that such strong evidence may not exist in the limited amount of extracts written by the professor. There are a few hints that make your case wrong, but you may easily reject them, using your own assumptions.

a) Only a portion of the Ainur entered Ea, but all of them participated in the Music Of the Ainur. And the third theme was the theme of the creation of the Children of Ilúvatar. Now why such a theme would describe the creation of Men if they already existed (as Ainur)?

b) Throughout the works of Tolkien, the Ainur and Men are considered separately. You already provided a quote. Why should he do so, if they were the same?

c) It seems to me unlikely that the Ainur that enter Ea as Men lose their memory and powers. Shouldn’t they remember their origin? Or at least shouldn’t they have more powers than the elves?

d) from the Silmarillion:

but they should have a virtue to shape their life, amid the powers and chances of the world, beyond the Music of the Ainur, which.is as fate to all things else;

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If we accept that Men are Ainur, then those Ainur have the unique ability to change their fate beyond the Music, while the others of the same race don’t have this ability. Could people of the same race receive different “gifts” from Ilúvatar? Then could this be considered a race? I think not.

e) Last but not least, those Ainur that didn’t decide to enter Ea, did so because they preferred to stay with Ilúvatar. Of course, they couldn’t have known that he would give them the opportunity to enter it as Men afterwards. Why would they change their mind then and accept to enter it as an inferior race, when they had rejected the opportunity to enter as superior?

Your points about Men being Ainur:
1)The fear of men is well known. It is the fear of fea to leave hroa and it comes from Arda Marred. The Ainur wouldn’t have such fear because since they were spirits from the beginning they could easily accept the loss of their temporary body. The primitive fear of death applies to those who haven’t experienced yet any bodiless condition.
2)You said: Men love things because they are reminded of the Music. I say that it is the gift to Men by Ilúvatar.

and of their operation everything should be, in form and deed, completed, and the world fulfilled unto the last and smallest.

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He put this reminiscence of things to Men in their hearts, to give them the internal incentive to fulfill their role in Arda.
3)

by Nóm
Elves like Vala are bound within Arda, while men are not. We know that the non-Valar Ainur are not bound within Arda, but who is to say that they can not enter into it at some point?
I think the big question to ask here is, did Tolkien ever write that the Ainur who stayed behind never enter Arda? Or that they were without the ability to ever enter?

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from The Shaping of ME HOME IV
It is not indeed explained in the Ambarkanta how the Valar entered the world at its beginning, passing through the impassable Walls, and perhaps we should not expect it to be. But the central idea at this time is clear: from the Beginning to the Great Battle in which Melko was overthrown, the world with all its inhabitants was inescapably bounded; but at the very end, in order to extrude Melko into the Void, the Valar were able to pierce the Walls by a Door.

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That’s what I found about the Walls of the World. It seems to me that these walls are impassable (from both directions) although at the early stages of cosmogony they were not fully operatable (and Tulkas was able to enter). There isn’t any reference to the Ainur that stayed. Tolkien forgets them after the Ainulindale.

About a:
One could think that the creation of men as it was in the third theme was the creation of their bodies!

About b:
Right. Why would he do so if they were the same? He probaby wouldn't.

About c:
Should they remember their origin? I can not anser this. only Eru would know in my opinion.
From Athrabeth Finrod Ah Andreth...

'It is not of other regions in Arda from which ye have journeyed. We also have journeyed from afar. But were you and
I to go together to your ancient homes east away I should recognize the things there as part of my home, but I should see in your eyes the same wonder and comparison as I see in the eyes of Men in Beleriand who were born here.'
'You speak strange words, Finrod,' said Andreth, 'which I have not heard before. Yet my heart is stirred as if by some truth that it recognizes even if it does not understand it. But fleeting is that memory, and goes ere it can be grasped; and then we grow
blind.

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Would they have more power than Elves? I do not know because I have no idea how powerful all of the Ainur were.

About d:
I don't see the evidence in this point.

About e:
Maybe superiority and inferiority were not the only things they considered. While the Valar got to shape the world it's self, maybe these other Ainur were wanting to change the world even more so, with creations.

About 1:
It does make sense that if men were Ainur that they would not be affraid to have the fea and hroa parted. Though it could be that once the Ainur entered the world as men they were initially ment to have the body forever, and they did not remember that they were once without it. This way the parting of hroa and fea would still be unnatural and men would have a reason to fear it.

About 2:
Could be.

About3:
Is this J.R.R.?

from the Beginning to the Great Battle in which Melko was overthrown, the world with all its inhabitants was inescapably bounded; but at the very end, in order to extrude Melko into the Void, the Valar were able to pierce the Walls by a Door.

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If the Valar found a door when they threw Melkor out, perhaps the fea of men find it.

Thanks for responding to my post

. And you challenge us to bring evidence against it, probably thinking that an argument that can’t be rejected rationally, must be correct.

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No. Just that one that can not be rejected will remain possible.

Power

Would they have more power than Elves? I do not know because I have no idea how powerful all of the Ainur were

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I'm not quite sure what is meant by power, would you be so kind to define? If strengh of body or mind, I don't know, but I think it does not matter. What mattesr is the right correlation to Eru, and, therefore, ability to form the new choir for the Arda Redeemed. As for the related feelings Finrod refers to, those are given as Finrod's thoughts about the subject, but not as ultimate truth about what will be. He thinks that Men and Elves will be placed in opposite positions in new Arda to what they were in old one, and we can agree (I think I do) or disagree, but nobody knows for sure...