The Silmarillion:Ainulindalë

Re: Power

Originally posted by HerenIstarion
I'm not quite sure what is meant by power, would you be so kind to define? If strengh of body or mind, I don't know, but I think it does not matter.

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I don't know what power means there. Someone asked me why, if Ainur became men, were they not as/more powerful than elves? Now whatever he might have ment by powerful when he asked that, I thought my answer would fit.

Welcome to the forum HerenIstarion!
...and yes, gate7ole, Lhunithiliel and even myself, do understand that Finrod's thoughts are Finrod's thoughts.

Originally posted by Lantarion

But wow, I can't believe how close that Egyptian legend is to the Ainulindalë.. A very interesting thread altogether!

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I read Lost Tales.There it is mentioned that Tolkien took plotes from Scandinavian mythology,German mythology and he tried to make a kind of English legends-I mean the story about Eriol and The Cottage of Lost Play.
But nothing about Egyptian mythology is mentioned.If there is a lot of similarities between it and Tolkien's Ainulindale, why Christopher Tolkien doesn't write anything about this in his notes.
This probably means there aren't any similarities between them,but obviously THERE ARE.
Isn't this a contradiction?

Egypt

from Tolkien's letters, letter #211 To Rhona Beare

The Númenóreans of Gondor were proud, peculiar, and archaic, and I think are best pictured in (say) Egyptian terms. In many ways they resembled 'Egyptians' – the love of, and power to construct, the gigantic and massive. And in their great interest in ancestry and in tombs. (But not of course in 'theology' : in which respect they were Hebraic and even more puritan

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But there Tolkien refers to Númenor, not the whole mythology. I have given it here just becuase he mentions Egypt in it

As I'm very obsessed with Egypt,I'm going to put in something once more.In fact,I thought of another simile --- the names are extremely meaningful both in Ancient Egypt and in Tolkien's world.
E.g.:Tut-anch-Amun means 'A living image of Amun'
Ankhes-en-Amun means 'She lives for Amun'.
And let's look at our characters---all of them have names which consist of different morphems that have an independent meaning.And they often change names,once something crucial happens and affects their lives,i.e. their names should imply it in some way.Like Turin did,for example.
By the way,ancient Egyptians had two names---the first one was a 'personal' name,known by the mother and the person himself only.In was kept in secret in fear of magic.(The name of the high goddess Isis means 'She who knows all names'---so she was the most powerful creature and no one could escape her magic).The other one was the 'social' name of the person-known by everybody.The Dwarves had some similar practice,didn't they?

names and meanings

Well, I assume it to be general parctice with the whole humanity. Though some names sound obscure and, so to say, "just names", all of them bear some meaning (I don't count nicknames, as those may be formed by repetition of some stem of "real" name, like Gio from George, or Cate from Catherine, but "real" ones mean "husband, land tiller" and "clean, light clean" respectively)

The thing with Tolkien is, his creation is more real than any other writer's I've ever read or even heard of

Surely names are important for the whole humanity!But my point was that the Egyptians and Tolkien creatures cosidered them so vital,that they changed them and so on.
And by the way,my parents didn't name me Milena because they knew it derived from the word for 'a thousand years',i.e. millennium.Nowadays most cultures use names as a part of some tradition,or because they sound good,or because they are the names of someone special etc. etc.And most importantly,hardly anyone names himself 'Black sword' now....

Originally posted by Melian
By the way,ancient Egyptians had two names---the first one was a 'personal' name,known by the mother and the person himself only.In was kept in secret in fear of magic.(The name of the high goddess Isis means 'She who knows all names'---so she was the most powerful creature and no one could escape her magic).The other one was the 'social' name of the person-known by everybody.The Dwarves had some similar practice,didn't they?

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I like that very much and I have a question.What happens if somebody else knows the "personal"name of a man?

Yes, Melian, note accepted

As for 'what if' question than this one is [believed to] gain power over the bearer of the name. When named by personal name, the named is unable to disobey namer's bidding. This theme is played around in Ursula LeGuin's novels

That's right.And you're entirely within the powers of the one who knows it---for the good or for the bad.See,it's so hard when magic is so obsessive for a culture.

Originally posted by Melian
That's right.And you're entirely within the powers of the one who knows it---for the good or for the bad.See,it's so hard when magic is so obsessive for a culture.

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Well,would you tell me your secret name.I would very much like if you are in power of my cruel intentions to take your posters of LOTR

Have you been a good boy throughout the past year?Then keep your head up and hope that Santa has got your letter!
Btw,I don't know what posters you're talking about?...

I wouldnt be so sure about the power of the words nowadays, as correlated with Silmarillion. One thing that was noted is the downward thread of its history, meaning that there is less and less (conscious) connection with the initial creative flame, and thus, there is less and less a posibility that one may use names in any sort of way... I think this is a "failsafe" switch for fallen times, so that wretchedness in people's heart doesn't run unchecked.

In mythologies I know, there is the rupture of the initial harmony, which is necessary for the creation to continue:
- in greek mythology, Cronos (time) cuts away from his father his creative power;
- in orient, maya brings limitation, illusion and suffering, after the first five, pure, stages of the creation occured;
- chinese say :"when all subcelestial beings know what good is, evil appear; when all subcelestial beings know what beauty is, uglyness appears";
My conclusion would be that the "Melkor discord" moment was a necessary and planned for step, nothing more, the ultimate purpose of the creation being the return of the Children of Eru to their Maker, which, of course, would require the creation to go through several steps, including those of corruption.

I think that you are basically right in that the actions of Melkor was nececarry to bring about evolution in Arda.

The way I see it, anyone who plays a significant role in a story (be it this story or The Story), must have a special relation with God. And one puzzling thing about Arda is that many evil/wrongdoing characters are the most gifted (Melkor, Sauron, Saruman, Feanor, etc). I guess their gifts are a testimony to this special relation, in the way Eru said himself: even those who would be against Him actually participate in the Greater Plan.

1. Why was Melkor (being the most powerful of the Ainur), the one who most wanted to do things by his own thought?

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Melkor is the most powerful Ainu/Vala and maybe he thinks he can control the other creatures. He thought that noone can destroy him and that was his greatest mistake

3. Is Melkor's shame but the beginning of his downfall? Is this the beginning of the element of Pride?

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I don't think that the shame was the beginning of his downfall. But maybe he realised that he is shame and then become Pride. Maybe that happened when he understood he is the most powerful but later that power decreased. But he didn't wanted to acknowledge it and he began making more and more evil creatures. Perhaps then he become Pride - when he didn't want to reckognize that he is not so powerful as at the beginning.

4. Were the Children of Ilúvatar a response to the discord of Melkor? Or was it just the fact that Ilúvatar wanted to made other beings in accord to what he knew best?

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May be. But everyone in Arda has role and maybe the role of Melkor and his servants is disturbing the Peace in Arda. What would happen if Melkor was not evil? Fëanor, Fingolfin, Hurin would be no more.

5. What made some Ainur more entralled to the idea of going to Arda and so to join themselves with the fate of the world?

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Maybe the greatest Ainur went to Arda to help the deeds of Manwë and Varda. These Ainur wanted to create new world and to make their songs true. But Tulkas Astaldo was very powerful and he didn't come at the beginning; so I would say that there are very powerful Valar who don't live in Arda.

6. Why was Ulmo the one most instructed by Music by Ilúvatar? Does this has in fact something to do with the way he acts as the story goes on?

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Maybe bacause while he was listening the Music he didn't forget anything. And his elements is the water - this is the Second Element - the Water is everywhere. It gives him power.

8. Is it better to stay with Ilúvatar or go to Arda?

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Short question but very 'deep'. If you want to have no problems and only to look the other you would stay with Eru. But I suppose that the Ainur have communicate each other and the ones who lived with Eru have helped the other Ainur. So there aren't many diffenences. The most Ainur have relations with Arda.

Melkor is the most powerful Ainu/Vala and maybe he thinks he can control the other creatures. He thought that noone can destroy him and that was his greatest mistake

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Melkor was the most powerful Ainu; after entering Ea, he lost a good deal of his power and wasn't even considered to be anymore a Vala.

What would happen if Melkor was not evil? Fëanor, Fingolfin, Hurin would be no more.

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Would be no more... in what sense?

And his elements is the water - this is the Second Element - the Water is everywhere.

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This could be a rather moot point, but water is usually considered the third element (or the fourth, if you also consider ether)

If you want to have no problems and only to look the other you would stay with Eru.

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Do you think it is safer to live in the Timeless Void with Morgoth around, gathering strength?

Re: The Silmarillion: Ainulindalë

Melkor was the most powerful Ainu; after entering Ea, he lost a good deal of his power and wasn't even considered to be anymore a Vala.

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I said 'Vala/Ainu' and I mean that at the beginning he was a Vala but after a while he wasn't because of his evil deeds, etc. He lost many of his powers but after entering Ea he was still the most powerful and later he become less powerful.

Would be no more... in what sense?

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There will be no bad deeds. The High Elves went to the Middle earth to take the Jewels because they have been created by Fëanor. If Melkor doen't exist Fëanor won't go to the Middle earth to take his Jewels, Finwë and all fair Elves won't be slan. I that sense.

Do you think it is safer to live in the Timeless Void with Morgoth around, gathering strength?

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What do you mean? There are Ainur who will go to Arda

There will be no bad deeds. The High Elves went to the Middle earth to take the Jewels because they have been created by Fëanor. If Melkor doen't exist Fëanor won't go to the Middle earth to take his Jewels, Finwë and all fair Elves won't be slan. I that sense

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I don't think that Melkor is evilness itself, he is just influenced by evil/falls prey to evil temptations; therefore, were him not to exist, there would still be "evil" around. And if the Noldor were capable of kinslaying, then they, or any other elf as far as I am concerned, would be capable of stealing, which could also cause the oath of Feanor, the exile, the kinslaying, so on... (or myriads of other probable scenarios could be conceived). Eliminating Melkor is not eliminating evil.

If you want to have no problems and only to look the other you would stay with Eru

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I don't think it is that safe to stay in the Timeless Void after Morgoth is casted out of Ea.

I don't think that Melkor is evilness itself, he is just influenced by evil/falls prey to evil temptations; therefore, were him not to exist, there would still be "evil" around. And if the Noldor were capable of kinslaying, then they, or any other elf as far as I am concerned, would be capable of stealing, which could also cause the oath of Feanor, the exile, the kinslaying, so on... (or myriads of other probable scenarios could be conceived). Eliminating Melkor is not eliminating evil.

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Well, I think Melkor is the source of Evil in Arda. He was the first who attacked the Valar and destroyed Arda. But if you don't think so we mustn't discuss because we will not change our position.

I don't think it is that safe to stay in the Timeless Void after Morgoth is casted out of Ea.

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I don't think Melkor is dangerous while he is out of Ea.