The worst deed of Melko

nom,

Morgoth's greed ties in directly with the poisioning of Arda and the fall of Man. They are all just different stages of a single reaction. (while his treatment and subsequent damnation of Hurin was a different deed altogether)

arvedui,

A close theological parallel (re: fall of man) is Jews' fall from grace after the Moses debacle. I wonder if it is touched upon in the Bible.

I don't see how the seduction of an entire race of people should not be viewed as a deed on its own simply because it was one of a long line of corruptive evils, while at the same time the evil treatment of a single man is. This classification seems so abitrary to me that I can't imagine why someone would go as far as to try to convince someone that they are wrong for seeing it otherwise.

The 'seduction of an entire race of people' was a deed to be considered along with a 'long line of corruptive evils' each of which was a "Deed" to be compared to others.

My position is that bad as was the corruption of Men and even Elves. These could have been more limited in scope without the disemination of Melkor's essence throughout Arda marring the whole of Arda and all that came from Arda or were nurished by Arda. It also allowed Melkor's influence continue long after he was thrust out into the void and also long after Sauron was rendered impotent by the destruction of the One Ring.

Arvedui said:

And IMO, there is a limit to how long Melkor/Morgoth can continue to spread his evil. The power that he spends can't be renewed.

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It is true that the power cannot be renewed. Yet it cannot be wholly removed without the destruction of Arda. While it no doubt would gradually lessen in effect over the many ages of Arda, it would also still be there even to the end of days.

Arvedui said:

there is an inconsistency (sp?) in the Athrabeth at that point, as it is stated in The Silmarillion that Morgoth could not take on a fair form after the slaying of the Trees, but in the Tale of Adanel it is referred to

Then one appeared among us, in our own form visible, but greater and more beautiful.

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So this could IMO not have been Morgoth. Maybe this was just an excuse?

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In the ‘Athrabeth’, the Awakening of Men is moved back in time. Tolkien seems to have placed the event around the time of the Great March or the Sack of Utumno, long before the slaying of the Trees.

As for the "fall" of Man-ever read Candide? Perhaps it would be better if we just dug holes in the ground.

On matters pertaining to Men in Middle-Earth, the Atrhabeth remains the greatest philopsphical consideration of the matter available to us-though the philopshy of the Athrabeth is relevant to us too.

Isn't it ironic that the Numenoreans-who were, in a sense, "restored" to fit the image of original man, as far as restoration was possible, eventually seeked to take over the world?

If Eru wanted puppets then he wouldn't have created Men-if he wanted wise beings he would have simply created more Elves.

What was Melkor's worst deed? Being Melkor perhaps? Certainly such a deed far surpasses any other!

Gothmog said:

It is true that the power cannot be renewed. Yet it cannot be wholly removed without the destruction of Arda. While it no doubt would gradually lessen in effect over the many ages of Arda, it would also still be there even to the end of days.

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Of course. As the foundations of Arda are basicly "good," which cannot be changed, then the "bad" influence of Melkor/Morgoth cannot be wholly removed neither. Not without bringing in the Second Prophecy of Mandos, at least.

Nóm said:

I don't see how the seduction of an entire race of people should not be viewed as a deed on its own simply because it was one of a long line of corruptive evils,

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I agree!

Personally, I feel Melkor was at his most brilliant and insidious when he infused his spirit into Arda itself. "Destroy me, will you? Fine! But I'll take every last one of your creations with me!" *evil laughter ensues*

chrysophalax said:

Personally, I feel Melkor was at his most brilliant and insidious when he infused his spirit into Arda itself. "Destroy me, will you? Fine! But I'll take every last one of your creations with me!" *evil laughter ensues*

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*shivers* Ooh, that gives me the chills!

If you think about it, all of Morgoth's deeds can be traced back to one single deed; seeking to increase his own power and glory by sowing his own disonnance in the Music. Or, even further, to his desire "to bring into Being things of his own" (Silmarillion, the Ainulindalë). It could be argued that allowed those thoughts that were not of Iluvatar and those desires to come into his mind, that he would have never done his many other evil deeds. So, in that respect, his worst deed was allowing those thoughts into his mind in the first place.

Elor, I beg to differ! The "evil" of which you speak is creativity...the imaginative rhythm to which Melkor lived and moved and had his being (to paraphrase). To say that his ability to see things from a different perspective is "wrong" would be to wish that all of Middle Earth was in thrall to one will...that of Iluvatar!

From my own viewpoint, Iluvatar, with his insistence on order, sowed the seeds of Melkor's discord and thus opened the door for all that came to pass. What father, what mother would rein in their child's delight at something new and different? Granted, Melkor was not the offspring of Iluvatar per se, but rather, he was counted as the mightiest of the Ainur. Not one to hide his light under a basket, Melkor came forward and displayed his creative genius...to mixed reviews.

It was only upon being ignored and told to "Sing what's written...no more scat!" that he "branched out" so to speak. To sum up, had Iluvatar been a tad more open...who knows what wonders Melkor might have shown himself capable of?

It's all a matter of perspective.

I would argue that Iluvatar was open to the imaginings of each of the Ainur. He didn't dictate exactly what each of the Ainur played, he assigned them a part and a basic melody. They were supposed to then give that main theme their own variations and thoughts.
This could be compared to an orchestral piece from the Baroque era. Composers usually wrote out the main theme and added repeat signs. The performers were supposed to add their own interpretation and ornamentation to keep it from getting boring and overly repetitive. This allows for huge amounts of creativity and innovation, but the players still have to stay within the main theme given by the composer! It's also a huge responsibility; their are rules of music that must be kept in mind and the player cannot break them. But Melkor wasn't happy to just add his own variations, he wanted to write his own music that was completely different. Writing his own music wasn't wrong, it was the time and the place that he chose for it. If a french hornist decided in the middle of an orchestral piece that they wanted to write their own music and started playing their own thing right in the middle of the piece, the conductor would have a spaz attack! But Iluvatar didn't freak out. He gave tried to change the theme so that it incorporated Morgoth's ideas, but then Morgoth changed his part again to something else that contradicted the music. Iluvatar tried several times to include Morgoth's creativity in his theme, but Morgoth insisted on changing his part every time. This is not creative thinking, it's blatant rebellion against the will of the composer, Iluvatar.

And who could blame Iluvatar for insisting on order? What composer wants musicians to take a song that they wrote and completely change their part into something that doesn't fit into the overall plan? Heehee, Beethoven would have been absolutely furious! (but then, he was known for his temper ) I compose music and there are specific things that I make very clear how they should be played/performed, but there are other things that I allow each performer to interpet for themselves. Any good musician understands that it is only permissible to take a certain amount of liberty with someone else's work. Morgoth overstepped those bounds by trying to re-write his part entirely into something completely different from what was given to him by Iluvatar. And, given his knowledge and power, I'm sure his part was pretty important and impressive to begin with. Why did he have to insist on doing something completely different?

Because, like all true artists, he wanted to add his OWN take on things. Trust me, as regards music, I know whereof I speak. I was stage manager for two symphony orchestras and had the great privilege of meeting Maestro Solti once.

I agree in part with your analogy of the conductor wanting all players to play their parts as written...however...when there is NO conductor? Here we have jazz, rap, chants...music that doesn't have to fit in a metered box. Iluvatar basically told Melkor to go stand out on the street while the rest of them got on with it..so who can blame him?

I could make comparisons to many freethinkers throughout history, but that would not be entirely germain. The point is, Melkor was frowned upon and eventually dubbed "evil" because he refused to compromise. The question then becomes...would he have remained that way if he had been more carefully cultivated by Iluvatar...rather than Iluvatar basically ignoring him and letting his peers handle him?

He was a rebel! Not all revolution is bad...it becomes so when the party against which rebellion is directed refuses to listen.

chrysophalax said:

I agree in part with your analogy of the conductor wanting all players to play their parts as written...however...when there is NO conductor? Here we have jazz, rap, chants...music that doesn't have to fit in a metered box.

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I never have a conductor (in piano, at least. I do in choir.) but I still play the music according to the intent of the composer. Do I take a few liberties and add my own take? Yes. All good musicians do, but there is a very fine line between taking liberties and disregarding the intent of the composer. I have studied the composers and their musical eras they have come from so that I can discern, with some accuracy, what a particular composer would have considered an acceptable interpretation of their piece.

As for Jazz and rap, etc., I did forget about those. What can I say, I'm a Classical nerd. *sighs* That's what happens to us poor musicians who are permanently attached to our instruments. It's unusual for me to be more than ten feet away from a piano for an extended period of time!
Even in Jazz, where much of it is improvised, their are still specific chords, etc. given by the composer that provide basic guidelines for the improvisation and outline the basic intent. If the music of Morgoth was creating dissonance, he could not have been within those chords and, therefore, not within the original intent of the music. As for the subject of Rap... I'm not going to touch that with a ten foot pole. I would only offend the people who like rap.

I could make comparisons to many freethinkers throughout history, but that would not be entirely germain. The point is, Melkor was frowned upon and eventually dubbed "evil" because he refused to compromise. The question then becomes...would he have remained that way if he had been more carefully cultivated by Iluvatar...rather than Iluvatar basically ignoring him and letting his peers handle him?

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Perhaps he could have been handled a little better. But I still think that his rebellion was wrong. He was compromising the will and plan of his creator. He was created for a purpose and he basically decided that he was too good for that role and started trying to transform it into something else. Yes, he did have a vision and he was not willing to compromise. But both he and Iluvatar cannot have their way at the same time. So the question then is: who has priority? The creator or the created? I would have to side with the creator.

Seems we've gotten a bit off-topic here, since this thread was designed for opinion rather than debate. I would be delighted to continue this via PM, Elor.

Oh, do continue here if you wish, guys. It's an interesting take on the issue, and others can chime in as well.

Maybe some newer members will want to add their opinions.

Originally Posted by Nóm
Because I'm a moron - why else?

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- Haha...

The marring of Fëanor, who could have been a great(er) scholar and a great(er) artist without Melkor's lies.

'Neither did they [The Valar] mourn more for the death of the Trees than for the marring of Fëanor: of all Melkor's works the most wicked. For Fëanor was made the mightiest in all parts of body and mind: in valour, in endurance, in beauty, in understanding, in skill, in strength and subtlety alike: of all the Children of Eru, and a bright flame was in him. The works of wonder for the glory of Arda that he might otherwise have wrought only Manwë might in some measure conceive.'

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~Section 6, 'The Annals of Aman', Morgoth's Ring

from Elorendil
Do I take a few liberties and add my own take? Yes. All good musicians do, but there is a very fine line between taking liberties and disregarding the intent of the composer.

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I agree with points both of you make (Elorendil and chrysophalax). But I think Tolkien was hinting toward the fact that Melkor wasn’t just being creative, but he was being obnoxious and overriding in a spiteful manner (if you have ever been in a band and auditioned various drummers, you get my point). It’s one thing to infuse creative exposition into a piece, but being brazen and distasteful is something else entirely. I believe it was more akin to "Wachet auf, ruft uns die Stimme" being rudely interjected with Marilyn Manson at arena volume (or the reverse, depending on your tastes), and not mere theme and variation.