scotsboyuk
Vitr Alfr
- Joined
- Nov 29, 2004
- Messages
- 183
What an interesting comparison...Mrs. Maggott said:To my mind, Gollum is far more akin to Judas Iscariot than Christ.
Lhunithiliel said:Is Tolkien's mythological world "black-and-white" only?
In other worlds, do you think that the worlds and their inhabitants, that he had created, are based upon this bi-pole pattern, or are there "shades" and nuances?
Are the "good guys" only 'good' and the "bad guys" - only bad?
Is 'good' only good and 'evil' - only evil?
Some "food for thought".
I am very wary of "modern" Biblical scholorship which is often less than objective and tries to "disprove" earlier versions. Much of the problem with the Bible and its relatively different "versions" has to do with translations from Hebrew, Greek or Latin - and especially Greek. The old saw that "the Greeks have a word for it" is not without truth. For instance, the King James version translates the word into "charity"; later translations, "love". However, there are many different kinds of love which are quite clear in the Greek.Walter said:What an interesting comparison...
Judas, just like Gollum, is most often seen just as the villain. Judas is the no-good egomaniac who sells the saviour for 30 pieces of silver.
But a closer look may even here bring up some interesting aspects that may throw a different light at Mrs. M's comparison. Just like Gollum had his "alter ego" Sméagol, Judas sicarius, the 'murderer' or 'assassin', probably had one too. In the light of biblical scholarship of the last century it appears quite plausible that Judas Iscariot is identical with Judas Thomas, the (twin-)brother of Jesus, who is said to have "betrayed" Jesus, but with that probably only fulfilled Jesus' order (which was necessary to fulfil the prophecies; e.g. Zech 11:12; 12:10).
But just like Gollum, Judas Iscariot was playing an important role, without which the "greater plan" could not have been fulfilled, without which the world could not have been saved and both, Sméagol and Thomas (thomas is the aramaic word meaning 'twin') had to pay dearly in order to fulfil the divine plan, the one with his life, the other with his honour...
Forggoten Path said:I am glad I stumbled upon this thread. It is very interesting, and I enjoy musing over this subject. Everyone, I hope this all made sense.
Here I do not agree. I think the bigger part of the problem which has arisen for Christian Orthodoxy in the past decades by the results of modern biblical scholarship are just "old sins" coming back to haunt them: Namely, the biased and manipulative way to handle "scripture" and create "canon" and "orthodoxy" - and thus "correcting" and omitting those "apocryphal" traditions that didn't fit nicely into Paul's and Peter's new religion (creating a new religion was never Jesus' intention anyway) during the first 3 or 4 centuries.Mrs. Maggott said:I am very wary of "modern" Biblical scholorship which is often less than objective and tries to "disprove" earlier versions. Much of the problem with the Bible and its relatively different "versions" has to do with translations from Hebrew, Greek or Latin - and especially Greek. The old saw that "the Greeks have a word for it" is not without truth. For instance, the King James version translates the word into "charity"; later translations, "love". However, there are many different kinds of love which are quite clear in the Greek.
Walter said:Here I do not agree. I think the bigger part of the problem which has arisen for Christian Orthodoxy in the past decades by the results of modern biblical scholarship are just "old sins" coming back to haunt them: Namely, the biased and manipulative way to handle "scripture" and create "canon" and "orthodoxy" - and thus "correcting" and omitting those "apocryphal" traditions that didn't fit nicely into Paul's and Peter's new religion (creating a new religion was never Jesus' intention anyway) during the first 3 or 4 centuries.
But I really do not wish to get drawn into another religious discussion, my intention was to point out that there's more to your comparison between Gollum and Judas than what first meets the eye.
Eriol said:Modern biblical scholarship doesn't differ much from ancient biblical scholarship in that they draw way too much conclusions from too few data (and that goes for both Christian and non-Christian scholars). Yet, as anyone who looks into the matter knows, the "manipulative and biased way" to handle the texts isn't at all different from "protection of copyright"; the early Church certainly condemned and destroyed books which projected a false character on Jesus. The same thing would surely happen if people began to write "alternative Lord of the Rings" in which Aragorn were an orc, or Gandalf were just an impersonal force of nature like "the Force" in Star Wars, or in which Gollum and Frodo were considered the same character.
This would happen with LotR, a work of fiction; it's rather more understandable (and important) if we are speaking about factual reports, about real people, as the gospels are...
Barliman Butterbur said:Ahem, ahem, beg pardon...not all of us hold that to be true. As far as I'm concerned, the gospels speak of alleged "facts," the details of which are as "manipulated and biased" as anything you were talking about in your opening paragraph. (I think this discussion will eventually call down The Wrath of the Mods, since such discussion has been declared a no-no...)
Barly
Of course!Eriol said:You have my pardon. And not all of us hold that to be false either.
Oh, so do I! But then — in this case — you object to your own post (even a majority opinion can be wrong)!What I object to is the presentation of some minority opinions as facts.
(I take it you accept "as far as I'm concerned"?) And you didn't either. But we're not supposed to talk about this stuff anymore.I know quite well that Walter and you do not agree with the gospels, but the least that I can ask of you is that you label your opinions with the tag "opinion", and your facts with the tag "facts".
Which Walter didn't do in that passage above.
Barliman Butterbur said:And you didn't either.
Not yetI think this discussion will eventually call down The Wrath of the Mods, since such discussion has been declared a no-no.
Eriol said:Well, I also remember that you don't believe in objective truth, so it's no surprise that you equate "opinion with evidence" and "opinion without evidence". Which is of course your sovereign right as a free human being.
...Tolkien's musings...made the Orcs to be absolutely "black", but that couldn't be reconciled with the old theory of "Orcs-as-corrupted-Quendi" without ditching the free will of the elves, and Tolkien wasn't ready for that. The idea of making orcs "corrupted beasts" (which presumably lacked free will), perhaps infused with Maiar spirits (which would be evil by choice), is very much an "explanation" of that blackness seen in Orcs, who are irredeemable.
With regard to The Lord of the Rings, I cannot claim to be a sufficient theologian to say whether my notion of orcs is heretical or not. I don't feel under any obligation to make my story fit with formalized Christian theology, though I actually intended it to be consonant with Christian thought and belief, which is asserted somewhere, Book Five, page 190, where Frodo asserts that the orcs are not evil in origin. We believe that, I suppose, of all human kinds and sorts and breeds, though some appear, both as individuals and groups to be, by us at any rate, unredeemable. . . . .
...Their nature and origin require more thought. They are not easy to work into the theory and system.
(1) As the case of Aulë and the Dwarves shows, only Eru could make creatures with independent wills, and with reasoning powers. But Orcs seem to have both: they can try to cheat Morgoth/Sauron, rebel against him, or criticize him.
(2) ? Therefore they must be corruptions of something pre-existing.
(3) But Men had not yet appeared, when the Orcs already existed. Aulë constructed the Dwarves out of his memory of the Music; but Eru would not sanction the work of Melkor so as to allow the independence of the Orcs. (Not unless the Orcs were ultimately redeemable, or could be amended and 'saved'?)
It also seems clear (see 'Finrod and Andreth') that though Melkor could utterly corrupt and ruin individuals, it is not possible to contemplate his absolute perversion of a whole people, or group of peoples, and his making that state heritable [Added later: This latter must (if a fact) be an act of Eru.]
In that case Elves, as a source, are very unlikely. And are Orcs 'immortal', in the Elvish sense? Or trolls? It seems clearly implied in The Lord of the Rings that trolls existed in their own right, but were 'tinkered' with by Melkor.
(4) What of talking beasts and birds with reasoning and speech? These have been rather lightly adopted from less 'serious' mythologies, but play a part which cannot now be excised. They are certainly 'exceptions' and not much used, but sufficiently to show they are a recognized feature of the world. All other creatures accept them as natural if not common.
(...)
In summary: I think it must be assumed that 'talking' is not necessarily the sign of the possession of a 'rational soul' or fëa. The Orcs were beasts of humanized shape (to mock Men and Elves) deliberately perverted/converted into a more close resemblance to Men. Their 'talking' was really reeling off 'records' set in them by Melkor. Even their rebellious critical words -- he knew about them. Melkor taught them speech and as they bred they inherited this; and they had just as much independence as have, say, dogs or horses of their human masters. This talking was largely echoic (cf. parrots). In The Lords of the Rings Sauron is said to have devised a language for them.
Quite an interesting comparison too. Now let us examine it a little closer. The locations and characters of Tolkien's legendarium are indeed protected by copyrights, which is - at least in part – simply ridiculous. Tolkien has heavily "borrowed" names as well as storylines from other, pre-existing, myths. Names like Middle-earth, Mirkwood, Eärendil, Ents, or storylines like the tale of Turin, the early conception of the Valar – to name but a few – are examples of this and Tolkien, when asked, admitted that quite freely. Would Tolkien's legendarium be stripped of everything he originally borrowed from other myths it would be dismantled to a degree where it probably would not be recognizable anymore.Eriol said:Modern biblical scholarship doesn't differ much from ancient biblical scholarship in that they draw way too much conclusions from too few data (and that goes for both Christian and non-Christian scholars). Yet, as anyone who looks into the matter knows, the "manipulative and biased way" to handle the texts isn't at all different from "protection of copyright"; the early Church certainly condemned and destroyed books which projected a false character on Jesus. The same thing would surely happen if people began to write "alternative Lord of the Rings" in which Aragorn were an orc, or Gandalf were just an impersonal force of nature like "the Force" in Star Wars, or in which Gollum and Frodo were considered the same character.
This would happen with LotR, a work of fiction; it's rather more understandable (and important) if we are speaking about factual reports, about real people, as the gospels are. The apocryphal were rejected because they were false; and we know that precisely because they were rejected. The point, which no biblical scholar would deny, is that the early Church was in the best imaginable position to pick which books were true and which were false; much better than any biblical scholar, modern or ancient. To presume that they picked the books according to some conspiracy to establish a great religion (something which led the leaders to ghastly deaths) while knowing that they were lying about it is, to put it mildly, sorely lacking in evidence. As much as some people would loooove to see a Jesus like the one depicted in the apocryphals, such as one who married Mary Magdalene, the simple fact is that this did not happen, according to the best evidence that we have -- the gospels, selected by the people closest to Jesus, and who had no vested interest in manipulating the stories, quite the contrary (if they had any vested interest it was surely to make them softer, more like the apocryphals, for it would render their religion more acceptable to Roman society. Yet, they didn't).
I was curious when you asserted without any doubt that Paul and Peter did not follow Jesus' wishes. Do you have any inside information on what were Jesus' wishes? I'd rather assume that Peter, the person whom Jesus specifically chose to continue his work, knew what he was doing.
What I object to is the presentation of some minority opinions as facts.
I know quite well that Walter and you do not agree with the gospels,...
...but the least that I can ask of you is that you label your opinions with the tag "opinion", and your facts with the tag "facts".
Without going in to speculation too far, I thought Tolkien designed the Orcs in such a way as to avoid such issues, or at least make them of limited relevance within his mythology.Barliman Butterbur said:Tolkien is addressing a theological issue that comes from within Western religion, specifically Christianity, and also what seems to me to be his private problem (and the in-house problem of other Christians for whom it matters): shall orcs be redeemable since they were "bred" from elves, or not? This to me is a question which breeds (no pun intended) endless (and therefore fruitless) speculation. If even he couldn't come to an answer which satisfied him, I shall certainly not presume to try to find one for him!
Further, I am glad indeed that JR didn't weigh down his saga with his (private) question openly, happily leaving Joe Reader (including myself) to enjoy his reading without being weighted down, albatrosslike, with extraneous (for the reader who has no such concerns) religious baggage.
Barley
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