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Uruks vs. Uruk-hai

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Shagrat seems to be gone (he moved back to England from China), I attempted to e-mail him a little while back and got no responce.
Sheesh. You think he'd be easier to get a hold of in England.

Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
Cian will be able to better answer your query but here is something noted linguist David Salo wrote on a this subject elsewhere:
Ah yes. But I'm unclear on whether (for instance) Druedain and Dunedain are general plural terms like Galadhrim or Orchoth. Any opinions?
 
I don't feel very qualified (though thanks Tar-E), especially after noting Helge's approach to the partitive vrs the general in Quenya (avoiding it in his course until the Appendices).

Anyway, on the coll plurals vrs. the 'mutation' plurals (thank you David! see below), but perhaps these forms might help?

adanath "men" (pl. agreement)
aranath "kings"
balrogath "balrogs"
drúath "drúedain" (said to be pl.)
eglath "the Falathrim"
firiath "mortal men" (called 'class-plural')
ion(n)ath "sons"
nauglath "dwarves"
periannath "halflings" (pl. agreement)
sellath "daughters"
torath "kings"



Edain itself arises from i-mutation (through stages) from Old Sindarin *adani (note Quenya atani).

But haven't we sorta gone this path before? with regards "Uruks" Uruk-hai I mean

edit: more to muse on:

Dúnedain was created to match Dúnedhil: "... which was a name for all the Elves of Beleriand, allied in the War." JRRT

And:
Ónen i-Estel Edain, ú-chebin estel anim
Translated by JRRT: "I gave Hope to the Dúnedain; I have kept no hope for myself".
 
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Originally posted by Cian

But haven't we sorta gone this path before? with regards "Uruks" Uruk-hai I mean

Yes, the difference being that then I was pronouncing, now I am asking. Thanks for the quotes- still not sure whether 'dunedain' falls into the class of collective plural, though.
 
I edited in some stuffs (above), and heck, I don't think we have heard from Chris Gilson yet member of the Tolklang Editorial Team:

__________
"Sindarin employs various plural suffixes, one of which is _-ath_, as in _sammath_'chambers', _ennorath_ 'middle-lands', _giliath_ 'host of stars', etc. In the notes in _The Road Goes Ever On_ Tolkien explains that "the suffix _-ath_ (originally a collective noun-suffix) was used as a group plural, embracing all things of the same name, or those associated in some special arrangement." In Letter #347 he says: "It was a collective or group suffix, and the nouns so formed originally singulars. But they were later treated as pls., especially when applied to people(s), e.g. _Periannath_ the Hobbit-folk, as distinguished from _periain_ hobbits, an indefinite number of 'halflings'."

Another Sindarin plural suffix is _-rim_. In Letter # 168 Tolkien says: "The 'correct' plural of _onod_ was _enyd_, or general plural _onodrim_; though _ened_ might be a form used in Gondor." Other examples of _-rim_ include _nogothrim_ 'dwarf-folk' (also _Naugrim_), _Golodhrim_ 'the Noldor', and _orodrim_ (in _Thangorodrim_ 'Mountains of Tyranny').

In Letter #144 in an explanation of the form _Rohir-rim_ Tolkien says: "The Eldarin languages distinguish in forms and use between a 'partitive' or 'particular' plural, and the general or total plural. Thus _yrch_ 'orcs, some orcs, des orques' occurs in vol. I, pp. 359, 402; the Orcs, as a race, or the whole of a group previously mentioned would have been _orchoth_. In Grey-elven the general plurals were very frequently made by adding to a name (or a place-name) some word meaning 'tribe, host, horde, people'. So _Haradrim_ the Southrons: Q _rimbe_, S _rim_, host; _Onod-rim_ the Ents."

:edit:

By and large suffixed forms are used as 'group' or 'total' plurals, while the vowel-affected forms are used for the 'particular' plural. But the latter is sometimes marked by a suffix as well. One example is _e^l_ 'star', pl. _elin_ (group pl. _elenath_). The same suffix _-in_ is seen in the plural _Conin_ 'princes' (Letter # 230). This also resembles the ending in plural adjectives such as _galen_ 'green' pl. _gelin_, and may owe its origin in part to this, or arise by a similar development. Presumably suffixed plurals co-exist in the place of vowel-affection plurals because the phonetic causes of the latter did not affect all nouns." C. Gilson
__________

Some darn good quoting here if nothing else
 
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Thanks! The letter 144 quote (specifically the discussion of orch/yrch/orchoth) was part of what got me thinking about this in the first place.
 
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
uruk means orc in the black language. So if anyone can tell us what hai means then we'd have something.
This thread has 37 pages. If you would read them you would discover that we have been arguing about the meaning of the word "hai!" for 36 of them.

The argument is that, since the plural "s" doesn't exist in the black speech, that Uruks is simply an anglicization of the word Uruk-hai. It is determined that Uruks is not a word in the black speech (at least I think we've all agreed to that). It has been argued that "hai" means folk or peoples or a lot of other things. Read the thread and you'll see.
 
Originally posted by Anamatar IV
okay ill start reading them now. Ill get back to you sometime next week
Nobody said coming in to a thread with 37 pages would be easy.
 
That's precisely what is so annoying about coming late into RP's: if you have to read over twenty pages worth of text just to fit in your own minuscule plot variation.. Well, let's just say I'd rather gut a live fish than read that much at a time!
 
I thought Aragil may have 'struck' again at last! and Tar-E parried! but not yet ... not yet it seems ...

 
What does '-hai' mean?

(Cian or T-E out there?)
This thread is intended to extend Uruks vs. Uruk-hai, which, alas, was packed off to the Smials before I could get my last word in. In any case, Tar-Elenion countered my argument that '-hai' might mean men with
Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
I have remembered. We actually have a Black Speech word for 'man'.
'sharku' - 'old man'. *shar, '*old'; *ku , '*man'.
Cian please give further insight as necessary.
Cian offered I find this interesting, because one of the two k's is dropped going from shark-ku to sharku. This to me is a little reminiscent (perhaps wishfully so) of another word ending in k- Uruk. Is it at all possible that Uruk-hai stems from two original words- 'Uruk' and 'khai'? Remember, the original form (as demonstrated in Letters 66 and 78, as well as HoME vol 8) was 'urukhai' without the hyphen. I know Cian's earlier argument on the hyphen: Avoidance of a fricative is here given as the reason for later adding a hyphen, and now I'm wondering if there isn't a bit of lenition (new word for me) going on as well. For a close-looking word in Quenya, we have Tar-Elenion's statement:
Originally posted by Tar-Elenion
And even further is 'borrowed' from the Quenya: Tarkil from (IIRC) 'tar', 'high' and (CE) 'khil-', 'follow'(followers, Men).
Is it linguistically possible to have Quenya "Khil" for men related to (completely hypothetical) Black Speech "Khai"=men and "Khu"=man (to say nothing of Dwarvish kun=man)? I'm not really trying to make a hard sell here- I'm genuinely interested to find out if this is linguistically possible. Hmm. Perhaps I know part of Cian's reply already: Come on! Speculation is fun!
 
everyone seems to suggest that "hai" in suffix form refers to people or man, as far as i've seen, yet i suggest a new theory. Couldn't "hai" also mean improved, or altered (changed, modified, etc.). As it has been seen "hai" is also appears in the form Olog-hai, which is used analogously with Uruk-hai. since these two terms, uruk and uruk-hai, olog and olog-hai respectively, seem to be used in the story in such different contexts (and i understand that this is a hotly debated issue around here) wouldn't it seem sensible that these hai suffixes intimate some sort of modification like sunlight tolerance?
 
Re: What does '-hai' mean?


*Shark is unattested to in the corpus. It is a hypothetical of Craig Daniels'. He also suggest simply shar. You may wish to see if any other known B.S. compunds syncope in that manner.
Also would it need to be dropped from the compounds Olog-hai and Oghor-hai?
 
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