Were the Ainur the First to Spring from the Thought of Eru?

Good for you, to do so, Gothmog!

IMHO, in the light of Tolkien's mythology as we read it in the published Silmarillion, Eru was the one who created all the creatures in that Void of theirs - creatures called Ainur. And some of them were of more strength and power and abilities than the others. So, we see that even before the making of the world, later called Arda/ Ea, Eru created himself a "company" These creatures - more or less mighty, were offsprings of his mind and as it was many times discussed in numerous threads, it seems he had created some of them good and others - evil, some had a higher "rank", others - lower one. And they all lived there in that space=Void.
When the Ainur sang their music into being and the world was created not all of them entered it. Only some of them. Who stayed with Iluvatar - we are not told.
But even if the Valar and Maiar who willingly entered Arda were not allowed to leave it until the Great End, we have no particular information about the opposite process to be forbidden - namely creatures from the Void may have been entering into the new world even after the first "squad" .
Now, do we know when Sauron entered Arda? Nothing is said as far as I remember.
Meanwhile, while the Valar were very much occupied with settling comfortably in the new world, did they care who else of their brethren from the Void followed them? No. They had their troubles.
So, the point I'm trying to make is that creatures like Ungoliant etc. might have entered Arda before Sauron and he just was summoned later. Therefore he could not know about them.
Besides, the new world was vast even for the measures of the Valar. There were places they did not explore or if they visited those places they quickly withdrew from them for not finding them suitable or/and pleasing their exquisite taste. What a perfect place then for the others - the unknown, to settle in!

This is what I think of that....

To me the first sentence of the Ainulindale is pretty specific. Eru made the Ainur "...before aught else was made."

One way to reconcile this with the passage Gothmog quoted is to assume not all of the Ainur were created simultaneously, and that there were enough of them so that they could not all keep track of each other. Some of them chose to be very active in the affairs of the world and others were apparently content to dig their burrows and gnaw on the roots of the earth as Gandalf described. And just because an Ainur was a "bad guy", it doesn't mean it was necessariy allied with Melkor and Sauron. Ungoliant is one example of this there is no reason there could not be others.

I get the impression that the number of Ainur who chose to descend into Ea was a significantly greater number than the famous cast of character we read about through the stories.

Originally posted by Grond
"...Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, and I will bring no report to darken the light of day..."

This indicates to me that there are things older than the Ainur that must have sprung from the thought of Eru before the Vala and Maia. Since all was void, they must have resided in the void and maybe some came to Middle-earth after it was created.

Click to expand...

Eru created Arda with the words 'Eä', and the planet came into existence then. The Ainur were at that time still with Eru in his halls. But some things and concepts sung in the music of the Ainur might in that moment already have come into being - Tom Bombadil comes to mind, and perhaps such beings as the Watcher in the Water and Ungoliant. That would explain why Tom Bombadil is 'the eldest', but only in 'Arda-time' of course, not in 'absolute' time.

If we consider the whole of the Universe, the Ainur are indeed older than any other being (Eru excluded).

So in Arda-time, all the Ainur would be considered older than Tulkas for example, who entered Arda at a later time than everyone else. In 'actual' or 'absolute' time, Tulkas is the same age as every other Ainu of course.

The Ainur that entered Arda became part of it, and could not escape it. We could say that they became part of its history and time. And we could say that when they entered it, they started to age along with it, so to speak. In those terms, the Ainur were younger than some other beings who started 'aging' from the very moment Arda came into being.

I think what Gandalf meant in that statement of his, is that in 'Middle-Earth time', there were older things than the Ainur. When Sauron entered Arda, the nameless things were already there, living and aging, before Sauron started to 'live and age' in Arda, and therefore he would be considered younger then these nameless things.

Would it be insanity to believe that Sauron could have just been a second generation Ainur type thing? oh well.

Second generation? All of the Ainur were 'made' at the same time.

And I don't think the nameless things referred to by Gandalf are Ainur. Sauron can't be younger than these in 'actual' time, though he is younger in 'Middle-Earth time'. See my theory.

Yes, yes, yes. I've read everything in here already. But then, I haven't read anything that said that every little Maiar type thing that ever was were made at the same time. Things couldn't have happened anything like this? --->

First Ainur types show up all at once or one by one when Eru thinks them up.

He then makes these crazy things underground.

Sauron is born.

Gothmog, you sly devil.... bringing this old thread out of the depths of time again...

My thoughts are well posted throughout this thread and tend to agree wtih Lhun on this issue. Please post something additional to peek my interest a bit. I haven't debated in ages and hardly have the time for it... but for you... mayge a little time could be 'created'! LOL!!!

Good to see you back on the boards old friend. I am only sorry that I can't be. Let me know what you want to argue about and maybe I can find a way to participate.

The Ainur may not have been created at the same time... it seems. There were older brothers and sisters among them. However they were created outside of time itself, so it is odd to think of any coming before another in time. I think that beyond time things are infinite but a thing can still come before another, maybe the passing of time can be percieved, but has no end and so would feel different, a thing we can not comprehend. On the other hand 'elder' may refer to those who did enter Ea (time) earlier. But the point is that not all Ainur are the same age.

PS: As for the number of the Ainur, though only their music is described as sounding like a 'countless' bunch in the Ainulindale, we have this in Myth's Transformed:

After the Valar, who before were the Ainur of the Great Song, entered into Ea, those who were the noblest among them and understood most of the mind of Iluvatar sought amid the immeasurable regions of the Beginning for that place where they should establish the Kingdom of Arda in time to come. And when they had chosen that point and region where it should be, they began the labours that were needed. Others there were, countless to our thought though known each and numbered in the mind of Iluvatar, whose labour lay elsewhere and in other regions and histories of the Great Tale, amid stars remote and worlds beyond the reach of the furthest thought. But of these others we know nothing and cannot know, though the Valar of Arda, maybe, remember them all.

Click to expand...

So did they did only sound countlesss... they were.

Grond, Nice to hear from you again. I hope that soon you will be able to spend more time on the site and on MSN.

Well you ask for my thoughts and here they are.

I have for some time given thought to this problem. In the mythology we have a number of enigmas. The most celebrated of these is of course Tom Bombadil. But also there is the "Unnamed Creatures" that Gandalf talks about and the Watcher in the water by the West-gate of Moria.

Basically in my view there are three possible answers to this question.

One. Eru was not completely alone in the Void. There may have been other creatures of lesser order.

Two. There was multiple creations and Eru created things other than the Ainur either before or after and that the Ainur did not know of these before entering Arda.

Three. There was a secondary creation which included the "Unnamed Creatures" and possibly Tom and Ungoliant also.

Let us take a look at these possibilities

One. We have no writing or any evidence at all to support this thought. The use of this idea is at best speculative and verges on the realm of "Fan-Fiction".

Two. There is some support for this in the writings. Some of the earlier work includes the idea of Ainur being created or even Born at different times.

Three. Of the choices I have put forward, this has the most support in the writings. There was indeed "Secondary Creation". This was the Music of the Ainur where Eru propounded a Theme and each of the Ainur adorned this according to their measure and skill. Melkor introduced ideas of his own that were not in accord with the First Theme and caused a battle of sound.

Some of these thoughts he now wove into his music, and straightway discord arose about him, and many that sang nigh him grew despondent, and their thought was disturbed and their music faltered; but some began to attune their music to his rather than to the thought which they had at first. Then the discord of Melkor spread ever wider, and the melodies which had been heard before foundered in a sea of turbulent sound. But Ilúvatar sat and hearkened until it seemed that about his throne there was a raging storm, as of dark waters that made war one upon another in an endless wrath that would not be assuaged.

Click to expand...

This continued through the Second Theme.

Then Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that he smiled; and he lifted up his lift hand, and a new theme began amid the storm, like and yet unlike to the former theme, and it gathered power and had new beauty. But the discord of Melkor rose in uproar and contended with it, and again there was a war of sound more violent than before, until many of the Ainur were dismayed and sang no longer, and Melkor had the mastery.

Click to expand...

Even in the Third Theme there was discord between the two musics of the Ainur.

Then again Ilúvatar arose, and the Ainur perceived that his countenance was stern; and he lifted up his right hand, and behold! a third theme grew amid the confusion, and it was unlike the others. For it seemed at first soft and sweet, a mere rippling of gentle sounds in delicate melodies; but it could not be quenched, and it took to itself power and profundity. And it seemed at last that there were two musics progressing at one time before the seat of Ilúvatar, and they were utterly at variance. The one was deep and wide and beautiful, but slow and blended with an immeasurable sorrow, from which its beauty chiefly came. The other had now achieved a unity of its own; but it was loud, and vain, and endlessly repeated; and it had little harmony, but rather a clamorous unison as of many trumpets braying upon a few notes. And it essayed to drown the other music by the violence of its voice, but it seemed that its most triumphant notes were taken by the other and woven into its own solemn pattern.

Click to expand...

So the Ainur helped in the creation of Arda and indeed were responsible for "Secondary Creation" within it.

Then Ilúvatar spoke, and he said: 'Mighty are the Ainur, and mightiest among them is Melkor; but that he may know, and all the Ainur, that I am Ilúvatar, those things that ye have sung, I will show them forth, that ye may see what ye have done. And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.'

Click to expand...

However, to achieve this would require the creation of many different things. So from the discord caused by Melkor we could, and I think we do, get creatures such as Ungoliant from Melkor's thoughts and Tom possibly an answer from Manwë. In between these extremes of dark and light there would be many others including the idea of the Ents and also many others that the Ainur did not know and only learned of when they entered Arda.

So when the Ainur finished the Music Eru showed it to them and then knowing the Ainur he created Arda from their Music. This would then contain not only his Themes but also All of the secondary creation.

Quotes from the Ainulindalë

Gothmog.

Just one thought on your Theory #3. In Myths Transformed one can find these sentences:

In this way Sauron was also wiser than Melkor - Morgoth. Sauron was not a beginner of discord; and he probably knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor, whose mind had always been filled with his own plans and devices, and gave little attention to other things.

Click to expand...

So if Sauron knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor/Morgoth, I would say it was very possible that he also knew what Melkor brought into it.

So if Sauron knew more of the 'Music' than did Melkor/Morgoth, I would say it was very possible that he also knew what Melkor brought into it.

Click to expand...

It is true that Sauron would know "More of the Music" than Melkor acccording to the quote and therefore more of what was contained in it. However, Sauron was a very long way from being Eru. How much would he know? Tom and Ungoliant? Very Probably. All the many things that came between? I very much doubt it. Even Manwe is not shown to have that much knowledge and he is said to be closest to Eru.

I agree.
And none is said about any details. Did Sauron know all of the music? Probably not. As you say, only Eru did that.

Hi Arvedui...

I wonder if you could take a step back and elaborate a bit on Sauron being more knowledgeable of the Music than Melkor. I haven't read Myths Transformed yet so I don't know the context of the quote you provided.

It seems kind of strange that a mere Maia would know more of the Music than the mightiest of the Ainur.

Originally posted by baragund
Hi Arvedui...

I wonder if you could take a step back and elaborate a bit on Sauron being more knowledgeable of the Music than Melkor. I haven't read Myths Transformed yet so I don't know the context of the quote you provided.

It seems kind of strange that a mere Maia would know more of the Music than the mightiest of the Ainur.

Click to expand...

You have to understand where Melkor was coming from. He wasn't interested in listening to no stinkin' music. He was only interested in making his own and then subverting all the other music to himself. I think that any other Vala or Maia would probably have heard and understood more of the music than Melkor because Melkor just plain wasn't listening.

His intentions were not to follow the conducter (Eru), but to go off on his own tangent by which Arda Marred was actually created; hence, Melkor probably new least about the real themes "improvised/preordained" by Eru because he was too busy doing other things.

Originally posted by baragund
Hi Arvedui...

I wonder if you could take a step back and elaborate a bit on Sauron being more knowledgeable of the Music than Melkor.

Click to expand...

Grond beat me to it. Besides, he explained it a lot better and with fewer words that I would have done.

Sangahyando said:

I have come to the conclusion that either:

1) Void manifested itself in these creatures in the time of Illuvatar's coming.

2) The Unnamed Creatures are Ainur, that had been influenced by Melkor in the far reaches of the Endless Void

3) or, the Unnamed Creatures are an embodiment of Illuvatar's mind himself and that they are not his thought but his mind itself. (it's a bit hard to comprehend).

So has spoken Sangahyando, great-grandson of Castamir the Usurper

(I'm only eleven years old).

Click to expand...

An interesting concept. What supporting facts can you present from Tolkien's writings to support your viewpoint?? Ideas without basis are interesting but have no real weight.

Cheers,

grond

The question of the poll is 'Were the Ainur the First Offspring of the Thought of Eru?', not 'Were the Ainur the First created by Eru'.
I think that the Children of Eru were the first to spring from his thoughts. I think Eru created the Ainur to help the children and to create world for them. It is simple.

I think that the Children of Eru were the first to spring from his thoughts. I think Eru created the Ainur to help the children and to create world for them.

Click to expand...

Hm, what do you mean by Children of Eru? In the book, they reffer to the Men and Elves.