Were the Ainur the First to Spring from the Thought of Eru?

Thorondor_ said:

Hm, what do you mean by Children of Eru? In the book, they reffer to the Men and Elves.

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Yes, I mean the Elves and Men. Eru created the Ainur to protect the Children.
In some thread I posted that Ea is just a test for the Ainur. Eru wanted to know what will happen if... He created the Ainur to make a home for the Children. And they made. But the Valar had a few problems: Melkor, Fëanor. And there is 'end of the world'. So I think that Eru wanted to create another world later. The next world will be better than the first.

The question in my mind is, what framework are we defining "oldest"? To me, that implies a measurement of time, and there is reference in SIL about Arda (the physical world) being made in the "Deeps of Time". Perhaps there is no "time" in creation beyond Arda?

Here's a clue I found, when Eru shows the Ainur his vision for Arda, before they were instructed to fashion the world:

But they had become enamoured of the beauty of the vision and engrossed in the unfolding of the World which came there to being, and their minds were filled with it; for the history was incomplete and the circles of time not full-wrought when the vision was taken away.

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It seems therefore that Time was not established until the world was made.

Also, as someone mentioned, creatures entered (or were born in) Arda at different times. Those older than Sauron could have been created before he arrived in Arda with other Ainur. Same could apply to Bombadil and Treebeard, too though I realize there are inconsistencies with the whole Bombadil legend.

Bump...
Anybody want to jump in here?

Cheers,

Grond

Hama said:

One could interpret Gandalf's words in a number of ways. I think that these things have been around since before a) Sauron became evil. b)Sauron came to middle earth c) Sauron's spirit came back to inhabit middle earth. I do not think this meant the creation of Sauron along with the other Ainur. The origins of Tom Bombadil are as discussed on numerous other threads, an enigma that JRRT never explained. Concerning Ents, they were definitely some of the oldest inhabitants of Middle Earth, but doesn't it say somewhere that they were awoken by the Elves? Someone help me out please. In which case would you consider the Elves to be older? Obviously these big creatures had big egos to go with them.

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Concerning Ents: The Eldar discovered them, and taught them language. They did not awaken the Ents. That was Eru.

Camille said:

I also think that maybe those creatures that sauron did not know are the beast that orome used to hunt at the time when arda was young and melkor corrupted many things at the time before time.

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I love this concept; That the creatures Gandalf speaks of dwelling deep below the Earth used to be above ground and they are what Oromë hunted before the coming of the Elves.

Grond said:

"...Far, far below the deepest delvings of the Dwarves, the world is gnawed by nameless things. Even Sauron knows them not. They are older than he. Now I have walked there, and I will bring no report to darken the light of day..."

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One of my favorites quotes. Very Lovecraftian. I wish Tolkien would have explored this concept further.