What are you writing about now?

Maedhros_Nelyafinwë said:

👆🏻👆🏻👆🏻 THIS! How it often goes, is we try to make some argument about why the Fëanorians aren't as bad as people think they are, and people go, "oh, so you're excusing kinslaying, then?"

I've also seen fans of the Fëanorians get gaslit, being accused of being sympathetic to real-life mass murderers because we like these characters.

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Yeah, none of those are fair reactions. None.

Tyelkormo the Fair said:

@Server Room Gremlin has found a very clever way of showing how it was fate(Eru, perhaps?) controlling the characters, and not characters controlling the fate. You'll see when she finally publishes the remaining chapters of TWC.

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I write from Lúthien's perspective in one of the RPs I'm doing with Tyelkormo, and she is aware that her path is already laid out for her, and feels the weight of her doom from the beginning. She goes willingly with Curufin because she ran into him at the eaves of Doriath. What are the chances of meeting an inhabitant of the realm of Finrod, her Noldorin kinsman, the moment she leaves Doriath? It must be fate.

Returning to the book's version of events, I would think she realises her error once it is clear she is getting nowhere with her quest to help Beren. Huan offers her help, and she takes this next opportunity with the same mindset, that this is the next step, 'where she must go'.

It's my own interpretation of the details, but the amount of times 'doom' is mentioned in the Beren and Lúthien chapter is quite significant. Things are literally stated to happen that way because it was fated to be so.

As a firm House of Nolofinwian-er, I quite like the Fëanorians, particularly Maedhros and Maglor.

Maedhros is a typical Aristotelian tragic hero (noble upbringing, good character traits, and no matter what choice he makes, he's doomed to have a bad outcome). I like him the most because his deterioration is the saddest in my opinion. Why? Because Tolkien puts in the most effort with Maedhros to show how he goes downhill. We can actually observe throughout the narrative his strong character. As the story continues, the Oath slowly ruins him as he forces himself to stick to the "duty" into which his deceased father coerced him. Of all the sons, we actually get a progression of who Maedhros was and who he became. And it should be depressing.

Tolkien does less but some of the same with Maglor, but practically none with the remaining sons of Fëanor. It's recorded somewhere Tolkien wished he did not villainize the sons as he did (if anyone can find this source, be my guest), but he was on lost time to get the Sil published. Hence, we have what we have.

Concerning the Elf, the Myth, the Legend himself, while Fëanor is certainly inexcusably a villain as Tolkien portrayed, we must remember the greater the being, the higher the fall. It is not something to rejoice over when Fëanor is lost. This is a tragedy, that the greatest of the Children of Ilúvatar fell. Yes, Fëanor drives the story forward, and if it were not for him, the Sil would not be the Sil. But it is a tragedy nonetheless.

Glorfindel Goldtress said:

I like him the most because his deterioration is the saddest in my opinion.

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Could not agree more with this! Your whole analysis is excellent, and you pretty much pinpointed my exact thoughts about Maedhros and why he's my favorite Tolkien character.

Glorfindel Goldtress said:

no matter what choice he makes, he's doomed to have a bad outcome

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Yes. So true.

I dislike when people view him as a villain, because I see him as one of the most tragic characters in the story. A good person who was doomed and corrupted by fate. And with all the suffering and grief he went through, I find it impossible not to sympathize with him.

He clearly hated the deeds he felt compelled to do under the Oath. But he had no way of knowing there was any way of being released from it.

As for Celegorm, personally, I think his greatest character trait is loyalty.(Something he shares with his brother Curufin.)

He swears the oath without hesitation, and he also burns the ship without one, because he loyalty belongs to his father. He had great friendship with Aredhel daughter of Fingolfin, but even that was not enough to stop him from doing what he did.(He might have done it less readily if he knew his kin would have crossed the Great Ice to join them, but I still imagine he would have been persuaded.)

Loss of Fëanor meant that it was Maedhros he was loyal to and then the rest of his brothers.

There is nowhere mentioned he hated the sons of Finarfin and Finrod in particular,(That was Caranthir who disliked them, not him) so while he isn't exactly loyal to him besides family duty, he also wouldn't cast him away like trash. All sons of Fëanor were loyal to their family to death, so if to him Aredhel is family, so is Finrod.
So, I don't really see how he went from showing friendship to his cousin and then plotting his downfall. Even Finrod's apparent disloyalty in choosing to help a human regain the Silmarils and the audacity he had to ask them for help wasn't enough to make him his enemy, if not for the power of the Oath. His personality type also has Ti ( introverted thinking) like me and his brother Curufin, and since he can't really see Finrod actually succeeding in this suicide mission, he would not view him as someone he should get rid of.

Kind of like Javert from Les mis, but perhaps more lenient and instead of law, it's his family he prioritize.

@david_wendelken back to my story, you might want to note that considering how my Celegorm already has someone he is in love with, it'd be more of an AU rather than gap filler for the Silmarillion. Just so you know what you'll get yourself into if you want to read it. Madi only does AU!😂

After taking a break to spend time with my family, I have resumed work on my Amandil story, now delving into the motives of the Harondor Inhabitants and their answer to the question: "Is the preservation of your moral integrity more important than your life or the lives of your loved ones?" There is little doubt many of them will say no, but some resent the darkness their parents had to endure, the reign of iron terror Sauron wielded over their lives for so long. These will be the ones who will fight by Amandil's side.

Interesting how this is very similar to our day's topic.

Tyelkormo the Fair said:

Interesting how this is very similar to our day's topic.

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Day's topic?

WatcherWraith said:

Day's topic?

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The one about the Fëanorians and morality? I meant today's.😅

Tyelkormo the Fair said:

The one about the Fëanorians and morality? I meant today's.😅

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Oh! Apologies, I thought you meant somewhere in another channel.

No worries! Miscommunication is very common in online chatting.

The Silmarillion is written from the point of view of the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, not that of Feanor.

There's no doubt that the sons of Feanor and their people fought long and hard against the Morgoth. For that, they are to be commended. Doubtless, there were battlefield deeds of heroism amongst Feanor's descendants. I don't know of anyone who could reasonably argue otherwise.

The Kinslaying was dead wrong. Lots of innocent dead wrong. There's no getting around that. They could have built their own ships. They chose to steal those of the Teleri instead. Why such a hurry? It's not like they'll die of old age in the relatively few years it would take to build such a fleet. And, with a bit of time, they might be able to persuade the Teleri to provide passage.

Instead, they murdered a bunch of Teleri and deeply angered the rest. And what did that get them? They left without the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin! They want to go up against the most powerful of the Valar with only a fraction of the host they've mustered!
So, don't tell me Feanor and his sons weren't capable of being fully, truly, and monumentally selfish AND stupid!

They wanted what they wanted and they simply didn't care what the cost was to others.

And their actions with Luthien don't show any difference. They wanted to find a way to get the Sindar into their host. They wanted to control the forces of Nargothrond, too. They saw an opportunity. They wanted what they wanted and took what they could get away with, again without regard for what others wanted. I really don't see any difference in their methods or intentions, and I see the same weaknesses in their plans due to not caring what happens to others.

david_wendelken said:

The Silmarillion is written from the point of view of the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, not that of Feanor.

There's no doubt that the sons of Feanor and their people fought long and hard against the Morgoth. For that, they are to be commended. Doubtless, there were battlefield deeds of heroism amongst Feanor's descendants. I don't know of anyone who could reasonably argue otherwise.

The Kinslaying was dead wrong. Lots of innocent dead wrong. There's no getting around that. They could have built their own ships. They chose to steal those of the Teleri instead. Why such a hurry? It's not like they'll die of old age in the relatively few years it would take to build such a fleet. And, with a bit of time, they might be able to persuade the Teleri to provide passage.

Instead, they murdered a bunch of Teleri and deeply angered the rest. And what did that get them? They left without the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin! They want to go up against the most powerful of the Valar with only a fraction of the host they've mustered!
So, don't tell me Feanor and his sons weren't capable of being fully, truly, and monumentally selfish AND stupid!

They wanted what they wanted and they simply didn't care what the cost was to others.

And their actions with Luthien don't show any difference. They wanted to find a way to get the Sindar into their host. They wanted to control the forces of Nargothrond, too. They saw an opportunity. They wanted what they wanted and took what they could get away with, again without regard for what others wanted. I really don't see any difference in their methods or intentions, and I see the same weaknesses in their plans due to not caring what happens to others.

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This is also true. But there is no reason why people cannot be evil, good, kind, vicious and tragic all at once.

Before discovering the Silmarillion, I was very interested in real-world history, particularly the medieval period in Europe.
Something which often bothered me when reading blog posts or articles was the obvious partisanship of some of the writers. They discounted the nuance in the historical enemies of their favourite historical figures, all while saying other people's takes on their own favourites were not nuanced enough.

In my view, it's erroneous to treat historical figures as either totally justified in their actions, or as thoroughly evil because of them. It is difficult to know what's in the hearts of people in our own lives, let alone the hearts of people who lived hundreds of years ago. So we cannot know enough about their intentions to judge them. We can only observe their words and actions, and see what resulted from these. And of course, we can judge the morality of individual actions, saying that these actions were good or evil.

In a similar way, I prefer to learn about and study the characters in the Silmarillion, rather than judge them. My own work-in-progress story about Curufin aims to show the events in the book from his perspective. His actions are explained, as you get to see inside his mind, but neither condemned nor justified, except by the reactions of other characters to what he does.

Medieval nobility could be viciously merciless to their enemies (or those who had something they wanted), caring and tenderhearted to their loved ones, have terrible feuds or loyal friendships with other nobles, and be dutiful to their subjects all at once. And many of them led tragic lives, losing family and friends to sickness, war, childbirth and execution, and perhaps sharing the same fate themselves. I tend to see Fëanor and his sons in the same way.

david_wendelken said:

The Silmarillion is written from the point of view of the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin, not that of Feanor.

There's no doubt that the sons of Feanor and their people fought long and hard against the Morgoth. For that, they are to be commended. Doubtless, there were battlefield deeds of heroism amongst Feanor's descendants. I don't know of anyone who could reasonably argue otherwise.

The Kinslaying was dead wrong. Lots of innocent dead wrong. There's no getting around that. They could have built their own ships. They chose to steal those of the Teleri instead. Why such a hurry? It's not like they'll die of old age in the relatively few years it would take to build such a fleet. And, with a bit of time, they might be able to persuade the Teleri to provide passage.

Instead, they murdered a bunch of Teleri and deeply angered the rest. And what did that get them? They left without the Houses of Fingolfin and Finarfin! They want to go up against the most powerful of the Valar with only a fraction of the host they've mustered!
So, don't tell me Feanor and his sons weren't capable of being fully, truly, and monumentally selfish AND stupid!

They wanted what they wanted and they simply didn't care what the cost was to others.

And their actions with Luthien don't show any difference. They wanted to find a way to get the Sindar into their host. They wanted to control the forces of Nargothrond, too. They saw an opportunity. They wanted what they wanted and took what they could get away with, again without regard for what others wanted. I really don't see any difference in their methods or intentions, and I see the same weaknesses in their plans due to not caring what happens to others.

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Because they thought they were going to be stopped by the Valar? Even Fingolfin's host thought the same and that's why they attacked the Teleri. And who would have taught them? The Teleri? What makes you think they would have aided them in this way too?
And over all, I don't really count them trying to steal the ships as a stupid move. Rushed and desperate? Sure, but stupid? I don't really see it. Care to enlighten me?

And see, this is my point all over again. We didn't even bring up the kinslaying or tried to justify it, but you used it here as an argument.
In the blog post above, the OP clearly explained just how stupid and unlike them the kidnapping of Lúthien sounded like, and I'm not sure if you have read it at all or not.

But you know, just as the OP said, if you hate them that much and love the Disney like story of B&L, there isn't anything for you to find in her blog, or in my stories.🙂

I find much to enjoy in both stories. Fëanor and his house suffered much even before the terrible oath. Who could forget Fëanor's despair at losing his father, someone he loved and held in high regard, even above the Silmarils? And who could deny the mythic power of Luthien, half maia, half elf, singing before Námo himself in her grief over the loss of her most beloved Beren?

Personally, I wonder whether Tolkien was so inconsistent as to more or less forget how his own characters worked when he created the story of Beren and Luthien. It sounds dubious to me, but then again perhaps I have not delved as deeply into these people as others have. From my point of view, they seemed to behave as usual, considering the circumstances. In any case, I'm not sure why one cannot love and cherish both tales, both sets of characters.

It is true, the Kinslaying gets brought up a lot, perhaps because it was one of the most controversial decisions Fëanor ever made. His own sons were uncertain about it, I'm not surprised people in our world are still debating it, however hotly. However, it is also true the House of Fëanor has much to be attributed to it beyond this event. Their accomplishments should not go unmentioned(how many can say they held up under the torture of Morgoth? Only Maedhros and Huor, so far as I know.). They were still excellent craftsmen, as Curufin and Celebrimbor should display, and much happens between Tolkien's lines we do not hear about. After all, Curufin, one of Fëanor's most cold-hearted sons, was also the only one to father a child. Some elf lady found in him a heart worthy of love.

All in all, as I stated before, I like both stories and both sets of characters. I don't see why they should be separated. And Tolkien was a decently smart man: I'm sure he had excellent world-building reasons for writing Beren and Luthien as he did.

WatcherWraith said:

Personally, I wonder whether Tolkien was so inconsistent as to more or less forget how his own characters worked when he created the story of Beren and Luthien. It sounds dubious to me, but then again perhaps I have not delved as deeply into these people as others have. From my point of view, they seemed to behave as usual, considering the circumstances. In any case, I'm not sure why one cannot love and cherish both tales, both sets of characters.

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I personally find any inconsistencies to be minor. They were certainly not enough to leave me clueless about how to intepret Curufin's actions during the Beren and Lúthien story. In fact, it makes sense to me that he would want to increase his might at any cost, seeing the great losses they had all just suffered in the Dagor Bragollach. A weak son of Fëanor is a son of Fëanor who will perish alone like Fingolfin, without avenging his father or touching a single Silmaril. And the Oath demands they get the Silmarils back. So becoming as mighty as possible as quickly as possible is the way forward, so that no further Morgoth-inflicted disasters happen in the meantime.

It's not a purely cold and logical decision either. There would probably be shame and bitterness at his own failures too. So everything is done in over-haste, with urgency. And Curufin must harden his heart, or he will never be able to do what he feels he has to do.


Here's another thing to think about: the story of Beren and Lúthien was an important one to Tolkien personally. I would say it reflects the feelings he had about his own relationship with his wife Edith. And therefore the story has a bit of a different feel to other parts of the Silmarillion.
Also, I'm pretty sure Beren & Lúthien was one of the oldest stories, and went through a lot of changes in its development. That probably also contributes to the different feel.

The story of Beren and Lúthien has never been meaningful to me personally: it's just another one of the stories in the Silmarillion. But in recent days, I found myself appreciating it more, as I considered how significant these characters and their trials were to the one who wrote the story.
I know I write about things which matter to me, and so I appreciate it when I see someone else doing the same, even if I can't relate to it myself.

Server Room Gremlin said:

I would say it reflects the feelings he had about his own relationship with his wife Edith.

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He said she WAS his Luthien. I believe it's even on her headstone. (I'll have to check again.)

Ent At Large said:

He said she WAS his Luthien. I believe it's even on her headstone. (I'll have to check again.)

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It is.