What change in the movies ticks you off the most?

As much as I agree with you on the lack of devotion to Galadriel and the giving of gifts, I must disagree with you on the most raped character:

It definitely was Saruman. Sauron's evil servant, no better than the Mouth of Sauron, bringing down Caradhras on the Fellowship with thunder and lightening because Gandalf didn't want to go along with him to join the forces of Sauron. Give me a HUGE break.

And movie lovers, justify the Caradhras all you want to try and make it make sense. The fact is, is it doesn't. The "arm of Sauron growing long" was written to imply the evil of Sauron and the personal power he had, not to be represented from some crony who wasn't even in direct league with Sauron. And BTW, there is no evidence that it was even Sauron's doing that Caradhras was giving them trouble. Gandalf was stating a confirmation that Sauron's arm was growing long. He did not confirm that that is why Caradhras was throwing snow at them. Read it again.

Some of you justify to the nards what doesn't make sense in terms of some of the parts having any semblance to Tolkien just so you can feel safe within your limited reasoning concerning the movie. Just say that it was a cheesy, un-Tolkien intended scene be done with it. It will not mean that you dislike the movie, just that you can recognize an interpetational flaw and call it for what it is.

he-he

No, I agree with people here, most of the gifts were important in the narrative, and some were vital for survival. I think that some, if not most of these gift-givings were filmed. (Disclaimer: Critical comment about the movie to follow) Judging by the choppiness of the film as the fellowship leaves Lorien, and also by the fact that the fellowship is all wearing their cloaks, that the gift-giving happened in some way similar to how it happened in the books.
Someone just decided to chop it, and I won't defend that decision at all. Since it didn't make the cut in FotR, I doubt there will be any flashbacks in further movies.

About the mountain

I always thought that the mountain was mean and woudn't let them pass. Thats what I thought when I read the book at least.

latest posts

Just wanted to let everyone here know that (for what it's worth) I thought the last bit of discussions were very respectable and enjoyable to read.

Believe it or not, this is how almost all of the threads looked before the invasion of the body snatchers. I guess the movie has brought out the riff-raff as well as those truly interested in the movie and the author.

Mickeyplums...

Don't know where you're from, and don't give a rat's hind end. As I said in my first post on this board, I'm not here to pick fights with anyone, but I don't run away from them either. But I think that if you want to assault Americans, have the cojones to do it in person. Any COWARD can go on line and show their ignorance by shooting off their mouth off about their petty, nasty little prejudices.

FYI, I've got an MA working on a Doctorate. I know from experience there are plenty of venal, banal brain-dead idiots residing in Europe and elsewhere. America has no monopoly on ignorance, stupidity, and banality. Strictly my opinion, understand---but, for example, I worked for a Dutch company for quite a few years, and it was the most miserably managed organization I've ever seen, and the senior management ranks was populated by doofusses whose cluelessness was matched only by their cupidity and total absence of ethics.

You minor-leaguers can carp about what lowbrow types we Americans are if you wish. But everyone knows, whether they like to admit it or not, if you want something GREAT done, you need to go to the Americans. (Just wondering---how many other nations have put a man on the moon? But that's alright---the Germans make great beer, and the French can make a meal out of snails...)

Fact is, when you ask people anywhere in the world where they dream of living, it's America, the land of freedom and opportunity.

Well I don't want to live there ! And I don't know many people from Europe that would particularly want to live in the States ............. think your going a bit too far the other way ...... But anyway good that you're proud of where you're from ... everyone should be!
Anyway were not here to talk about that.

In the book the fellowship speculate as to who is blocking their progress on Caradhras ..... it is not resolved, they never know. I didn't particularly mind the fact that the film showed the cause as being Saruman.... Now I did mind that Frodo makes the decision to go to Moria and that they missed the attack of the Wargs which I thought could have been a great scene.
I would have also liked to see the giving of the gifts in Lorien and wonder if it was cut ....certainly everyone had the cloaks and the broaches afterwards. The golden wood did come over a bit too bleak and inhospitable.

Thorin : I think you are also getting overly insulting on the forum with your comments like "limited reasoning" and the like. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them stupid or wrong.

By the way Thorin did I miss something in the movie .....
The Saruman rape scene !
Who did it ?
Was it the evil Lurt ?
Did Gandalf find an alternative use for his staff ?
And I was wondering why they had the parental guidance rating.

Hello all,

New member here, but loooong time Tolkien fan. I just saw the movie last night and well, I completely enjoyed it from begining to end. I admit it was not 100% percent true to the book, but honestly very few book to movie translations are. Now, having said that I just have to make a comment or two on some of the gripes I've seen on this thread. The first one being from a few pages back where someone made the comment that a line spoken by Gandalf was not verboten as written in the book. The line in question was concerning the translation of the script written on the ring itself. Please take into consideration that these are actors playing these roles and as such I do not know one actors who has ever stuck 100% to the script as written. Once you have your lines down and really start getting into character line sometimes come out a little differently. I really dont think anyone noticed at the time, and honestly it does not really matter. In the same vien, it has also been brought up that the actors were not portraying the characters correctly Ie: Gandalf bumping his head while in Bag end because of course his been there several times or Gandalf sputtering "is it secret? is it safe". Again this may well have been the actors choice as well. Every great character in literary history has many different facets. I mean if they were one dimensional they would hardly be great literary fiqures. Therefore they are open to various interpertations. Just look at how many times Macbeth or Hamlet have been examined and re-examined over the course of history. So therefore did it ever occur to the people making those complaints that the actor playing Gandalf for example wished to show a more emphatic or human side to Gandalf...show off his concern for Frodo- a dear friend- when he knew the Riders were on there way to the Shire to get the ring.

Just my two cents,

Love Always
Xgothgrrl

P.S. Sense everone is up in arms over that "Let hunt some orc" line why is it that none of you seemed to have picked up on the line by Gimmel that went "No one tosses a Dwarf." and the humour in that line. Considering that the movie was flimed in New Zealand where Dwarf tossing is a popular Pub Past time.

dwarf tossing

Hey Mate,

'Fraid so, I'm from Aussie Org, so I can tell you yes...They do toss Dwarfs in pubs, or at least use. I have not been to NZ in at least 6 year so I don't know if they still do. Honestly I don't know if it was written in ref to that practice or not. It may just have been a way for Gimmel to express his pride in his own ablities but in light of that Practice which I was aware of...I found it blooming funny as hell.

Love Always
xgothgrrl

Oh gawd,

That is straight out of an old TV series here in the states called "L.A. Law". A "little person" was sueing over having lost his job for the same reason. The defence was being handled by a character played by the same actor who played Randal in Time Bandits. It made for amusing television but I never expected it to REALLY happen.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that some little actors were upset at PJ for the CGing of dwarves and hobbits.

"Don't know where you're from, and don't give a rat's hind end."

Nice line Bryhennien perhaps you should phone up Peter |Jackson and ask him if he'll include in The Two Towers. Perhaps Denethor could say it about Aragorn.

"But I think that if you want to assault Americans, have the cojones to do it in person. Any COWARD can go on line and show their ignorance by shooting off their mouth off about their petty, nasty little prejudices."

Have you been reading my posts? Where have I assaulted Americans? How fatuous. I assure you I am no coward.

"FYI, I've got an MA working on a Doctorate. "

Good grief, these days they must be letting anyone do them, it would seem even people without the wit to understand discursive essays. "FYI" what a classy abbbreviation, just in Tolkien's style.

"But that's alright---the Germans make great beer, and the French can make a meal out of snails...) "

Come on Aragil back me up here! He's xenophobe, racist and enemy of the German and French people, isnt he?

"Fact is, when you ask people anywhere in the world where they dream of living, it's America, the land of freedom and opportunity."

If living there means one loses the ability to be self-effacing and admit to one's own faults then I do not want to live there.

Originally posted by Moriarty
In the book the fellowship speculate as to who is blocking their progress on Caradhras ..... it is not resolved, they never know. I didn't particularly mind the fact that the film showed the cause as being Saruman

Thorin : I think you are also getting overly insulting on the forum with your comments like "limited reasoning" and the like. Just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make them stupid or wrong.

Click to expand...

To make Gimli's superstitous comment about Caradhras being caused by Sauron to match Gandalf's comment about Sauron's arm growing long is stretching it. To make Gimli's comment to match Gandalf's comment to include Saruman is REALLY stretching it and seems to me to be an effort to make Tolkien match the movie's interpretation which seems to me to be the way a lot of you are going. Many of you are re-interpreting Tolkien's scenes to match what you've seen on the screen. As a Tolkien fan, that is nothing short of travesty.

I, in no way am insulting anyone's opinion by saying, "limited reasoning" but the method and way they go about it. You have to admit that there is a lot of bull headed comments with no basis in Tolkien fact that are belligerent towards Tolkien-based comments. That is reasoning that is not only limited, but pig-headed and ignorant and sometimes downright rude. Have an opinion, but be reasonable as well.

IMO, the guilty party was the mountain itself. Tolkien was being realistic. The movie showed the fellowship much higher on the mountain than Tolkien did. People who have climbed mountains a quarter of the size of Everest have experienced worse conditions.

The comment about Sauron's arm was a literary device used by Tolkien to show the ominous fear that Sauron could inflict in people (after all, Gimli thought it possible that Sauron could control the elements) and a confirmation in the reader's mind that Sauron was powerful. The fact that Caradhras introduces the conversation in no way confirms that truth of Gimli's speculation.

Before the fellowship embarks up the mountain, Gimli himself states that Caradhras was not a mountain to be reckoned with. As a dwarf from the mountain, he knew it's reputation. When they come down the mountain, it says that Gimli shakes his hand at Caradhras. It does not say that he curses Sauron or Saruman.

It was a hinder of the fellowship from the elements that serve no one, not even Sauron, as Gandalf said about things on the mountain and ME.

Thank you for your compliment and opinion,

I do feel that the problem with interpreting the "ambiguous" scene from LoTR with Saruman doing it in the movie, is that that presupposes Saruman being in league with Sauron. After all, to say that the "arm of Sauron" could be contributed to Saruman is putting a lot of extra connotations in Gandalf's statement that though the movie makes, the book does not. PJ would have been much more justified by flashing to the dark Lord's throne showing Sauron raising his arm in a telekinetic show as Gandalf and the fellowship are struggling up the mountain.

The movie made Saruman basically a servant of Sauron wanting to join forces with Sauron and cursing Gandalf for not doing so. Therefore, if you wanted to compare the book's scene with Caradhras to the movie, it would be easy to take Gandalf's statment about the "arm of Sauron" and make it be Saruman.

The problem with that is you can't take that scene and try to make LoTR fit it or justify it by the movie scene. Proper hermeneutical interpretation starts at the source and logically must be the other way around. The book makes Saruman greedy to own the ring for himself. He wants it for himself and tries to encourage Gandalf to help him by stating that the wizards should rule ME. From the books standpoint, the episodes on Caradhras are either directly related to Sauron's doing or just from the elements of Caradhras itself. To stretch it to include Saruman is nothing but a gratuitous interpretation with no logical basis from the book.

Oh geez,

Now you have to explain every natural disaster in the film, every event of consequence? "Twas the Beans!" - Gandalf on Breaking Wind at Orthanc.

I can see it now, because some pitifull imbacile decided that the audience needs every last thing explained to them, becuase a snow storm couldn't JUST happen in the mountains..because the Audience is so obviously ignorant that they could not EVER buy the idea that someone didn't cause the snow storm an instigator had to be created for it.

I thought myself that such lunacy went out with the Aboriginal Mindset and the ancient mythologies of mankind which led to such ideas as feeding virgins to volcanoes to stop some god from causing a monsoon.

I thought that Satuman was betrayed to Sauron by the Palantir and Sauron then tried to bend SAruman to his will in the hunt for the Ring. But, then, Saruman eventually tried to betray Sauron and claim the Ring for his own.
Didn't a Ring-Wraith fly to Isengard to get the Ring and find it destroyed by the Ents. I seem to recall Gandalf mentioning that he didn't think Sauron would be very happy when he discovered that he had been betrayed.
I could have my time line confused. But, that's how I remember it.

And, Mickeyplums, I was going to keep my mouth shut, but, I'm really tired of your mouth. Speaking as an American of Irish descent, you and Bono should really pay more attention to cleaning up your own social problems at home instead of pointing your finger at the US. If it wasn't for the US and the British,(I'm sure you' ll appreciate that) most of Europe would be under the Soviet thumb. Deny that if you will, but, it's the truth. And as a people who have been killing each other for hundreds of years simply because they can't agree on how to worship the same God, perhaps the Irish shouldn't throw stones inside their own glass house.
Don't bad-mouth a vet (i.e. Brynheinnen) when I'm around or you'll surely get an earful. If all you've got to respond with are insults, you should really keep it to yourself.
But, in your defense, I think the Irish brew a fine bottle of beer.
Apologies to everyone else who had to listen to that. I'm really just tired of the ignorance and antagonism of some of the posts lately. I've probably been guilty of it myself, but, it's never intentional and I would hope that someone would point it out if I were so that I could make up for it.

theGrenadier, While eloquently put and right on point. This forum would have been better served if you had made this point in a private message to mickeyplums.

We try not to let the forum become a place for political debate and diatribe. (Given that mickeyplums started it and is the source of many negative posts.)

I thought that Tolkien readers more than anyone else would know not to judge others on things that can't be controlled. You can't hate people or stereotype them just because they happen to be born in a certain place. I am not trying to say that Americans are better than anyone else, I'm just saying that I don't give a f*** were you people are from. It doesn't make me value your opinion any more or less. I don't appreciate being judged by what poeple, who happen to be the same nationality as me, have done.

To whoever it was that asked why we didn't pick on the dwarf tossing line. It was because I'm sure most of here were trying to exercise it from our memories( by the way, it's Gimli, not Gimmel). Along with plenty of other crap lines thrown in. But by far the most offensive and emphasised was the orc line since it was the last line spoken by the trio in the movie.

We can also go to the Indiana Jones scene of the crumbling rock balancing act in Moria itself as a stupid and useless time-wasting gimmick, that stole real plot time along with Arwen and Lurtz.

As for Saruman, I personally found it weak the way PJ has him drive the fellowship into Moria. To what end would this serve him. It could only have handed the ring to Sauron who's creatures were obviously on control in Moria. Saruman had no Balrog. So his greed for the ring would not have been satisfied. It all makes no sense.

PJ wasted "precious" time from the true plot and ran out of it because he wasted time on his attempt at being original.

For those of you who think myself and others too purist, well I can only speak for myself, but with the things he had to cut or change slightly from the Shire to Weathertop, I think the movie was excellent. If he kept changes to this level the movie would have been very satisfying to me, and maybe other purists here. But once he got to the peoples and characters outside the Shire, he blew it.

I still don't like the way he did Merry and Pippin, but up until Weathertop, I cut them some slack with the hope their movie characters would mature as things got tense. Unfortunately, in my opinion, they became more immature about the whole situation.